Tuesday, May 09, 2006

Throw the bums out

Tancredo Rips Government’s Spying of Minutemen
Congressmen Tom Tancredo (R-CO) decried a recently-disclosed U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) practice of tipping off the Mexican military to the location of Minutemen volunteers. According to a story in this morning’s Inland Daily Bulletin, CBP notifies the Mexican government of when and where the Minutemen are planning to monitor the border and if violence is used by the Minutemen against illegal aliens. There has not been one verified instance of Minutemen volunteers using violence against illegal aliens.

“The Minutemen haven’t been accused of breaking the law. Quite the contrary—they have gone out of their way to aid law enforcement and ensure the safety of our border. The U.S. government has no grounds upon which to stifle the Minutemen’s constitutional right to organize,” Tancredo concluded. “I want to know the legal basis for CBP informing a foreign government of the activities of private citizens who are obeying the law.”

Our elitist ruling class is actively working against American citizens. These worthless politicians serve at our pleasure, if we do not feel properly represented then we have the ability to throw them out.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence indeed, will dictate, that Governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

Courtesy of Wikipedia.


Roger Doger said...

Oh, now your concerned about government spying. Go figure. We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their ... blah, blah, blah. Yes Daniel, the government is wiretapping, spying whatever on US citizens. Now just because YOU have a special interest it is "important". Funny how that works.

Wasn't it President Bush that said, "trust me"? Why don't you trust him on this? He was elected President and "has the right to run the nations security how he sees fit".(typical quote from you- name-them-conservatives) You don't support him on that? Realize this, if the administration is spying on quakers, opponents to the Iraq War, wouldn't you think they would be spying on Minutemen, opponents of the Bush Amnesty Immigration Policy?

Maybe now you con-asses will quite chastising Democrats and Republicans that criticize warrentless wiretapping and domestic spying on law abidding Americans. I doubt it.

Anonymous said...

Interesting. What goes around comes around. Roger may have a point.

Daniel said...

No one is "spying." The American government is tipping off a foreign government about the locations of legal assembly by American citizens with the purpose of helping foreign nationals break our laws.

Bruce said...

Finally...Proof that the American Govn't is implicit in aiding and abetting criminals coming into this country. Amazing, just how much the power of big business can overturn citizens concern. I guess i was right.....in my lifetime I WILL SEE FIGHTING IN THE STREETS!!!! Maybe the STONES were right all along. This country is beginning to smell real bad!!!

abrupt edge said...

After reading this blogspot for months now, I just keep getting more appalled at the ineptitude of readers like roger doger and anonymous to understand a point! I find it almost as appalling as the fact that our gov't. would even THINK about informing a foreign gov't. about the right of assembly that an American is legally doing because of the failure of our gov't. to do the job!

Sue K. said...

Well, if it ain't Curly (roger doger) and Moe (anonymous)!

Daniel-This story (if true) floors me. Does Bush dislike the "vigilante" Minutemen so much that he would put their lives even more so in danger? Never mind, you don't have to answer that question. He's made it perfectly clear how he feels about them. Their popularity is climbing while Bush's rating is.......going down the toilet!

Anonymous said...

No one is spying?

Tancredo Rips Government’s Spying of Minutemen

Huh? You need to go back and read Daniel.

Anonymous said...

Bruce said...

Stick it in your ear you immigrant cunt. I'll do and say what i want on MY blog. Just because a lot of my countrymen are afraid of "you people" doesn't mean that i am. I don't respect your culture or your ways or your language nor do i appreciate the invasion of my country from you greasy ever-pregnant burrito eating bitches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SO THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doug said...

More evidence that the anti-immigrant movement is filled with racists. (I don't need to say it to be true, I can just look at posts on their blogs, message boards and emails that they send me.)

el razonador said...

I've been lamenting Bruce's virulent racism for some time now. I guess it was never taken seriously because I have a Spanish log-in name (I guess that makes me Latino) which in turn subjected me to a litany of racial/ethnic slurs. Funny how that works.

It took Daniel "saying" something to Bruce for him to temper his rhetoric to a level which to him must seem unbearably PC. So, I guess the lesson is, it's not racism until another white conservative says it's racism, regardless of what the individual being slurred might think???

peod in Oregon said...

Look mother, little Roger has learned to cut and paste. I'm so proud.

Oregon Infidel said...

Hey Rodger, just a quick question.

Regarding this quote from your post:

"Maybe now you con-asses will quite chastising Democrats and Republicans that criticize warrentless wiretapping and domestic spying on law abidding Americans. I doubt it"

How do you know that the Gov't is wiretapping "Law Abiding Americans"? Are you privy a list of folks whom the Gov't has wiretapped? Maybe they were looking at Law Abiding Saudis, Swedes, Norweigans, or even Armenians? You don't know. You're making assumptions.

While I agree that the US Border Patrol has no business informing a foreign military of the activities and whereabouts of the minutemen, I also know that just because it's been reported, that doesn't necessarily make it true. Trust me, I've been mis-quoted and taken out of context by the media dozens of times during my stint as a Police Officer in Central California.

I respect your viewpoint Rodger, but calling folks "Con-Asses" just dis-credits you and makes you seem like the average, Ill Informed Joe Dumbass off the street.

And for the record, the wiretapping program that has everyone up in arms lately was suspended long before the operation was even brought to light by the media. It's a dead horse.

Anonymous said...

It's a dead horse that has Bush's ass in a sling.

BEAR said...

not once do the lefties express any concern for our country, the safety of our children, or the rule of law. They quibble, change the subject, and ignore the threats to our very existence. They are apparently not simply the apologists for the criminals and terrorists, but are their supporters. They fool nobody.

Sue K. said...

For the zillionth time.....anti-ILLEGAL immigrant!

Allen said...

Not so sure about that Illegal Alien Only stipulation!

During the late 50's the US saw a huge influx of so-called Political Immigrants from Eastern Europe that were later learned to have been purged out their mental hospitals and prisons. They were a dandy bunch that changed the lives of many Americans.

But then last weekend another who I suspect is an Immigrant with a horrific driving record killed four people in a car accident on Hwy 26 near Mt. Hood, another drives his late model SUV (where did he get that) into a Tigard bank and tries to kill strangers and another immigrant is running for public office in Washington County and acting like a mad man.

Hey, that was on tonight's news alone.

Guess what! Not a one of them speaks Spanish!

Perhaps we should not only close the borders but also start screening those who we do allow in and then send those that pass to school and teach them how to behave in a First World society.

I'm getting sick and tired of other Nations dumping their garbage in my front yard.

P.S. Lets clean up the language folks or its over for all of us.

Anonymous said...

Free fuckin' country Allen.

Hey Bear, according to us libs, we've been acting with this country's interest in mind the whole time we've been trying to get rid of this bum of a President and Republican controlled congress. If you haven't noticed (not that you would care) we have increasingly fewer friends in the world (just today the Brits and the Russians went on the critical record), despite a massive outpouring of support post 9-11.

Whatever type of "screw the international community" you might want to take, most people don't see this as a winning option. Hasn't worked to well so far. Foreign-policy arrogance has real consequences, none of which, on their face, seem positive in the long-run.

BEAR said...

hey, anon, 6:53, you're not fooling anyone. Appeasement, surrender, and emulating the french are not solutions, or in the best interests of anyone.

Bruce said...

Anonymous...you will never understand me because like most lefties and PC people you are intent on trying to make me look like a fool. THOSE COMMENTS ARE RESERVED FOR ILLEGAL CRIMINALS ONLY!!!! AND....we still have the first amendment. I have a right to believe however i want as long as i don't advocate or incite or request other to do violence towards a group of people. I will NEVER respect an illegals opinion or request to change my country's laws to accomadate him/her. I am watching the systematic dismantling of my country, aided and abetted by jerks like you, and i will not sit still for it without making my feelings known. You don't like it....thats TUFF SHIT!!!! I know very well you're trying to get Daniel to censor my voice because you hate people like me with my opinions. TOO BAD, thats what you people are good at....silencing,if possible,any objections to the takedown of my country. YOU WILL NEVER SILENCE ME, PUNK!!!!! If i am not on Daniels blog i will always have my own. Nothing you can do about it...i'll bet that just pisses you off something terrible.

Bruce said...

El Raz-- I have no idea whether you are latino or not..it really doesn't matter. I OBJECT TO YOUR ANTI-AMERICAN VIEWPOINTS and your constant virulence toward the U.S.A. Whether you are latino or not makes no differnce to me. You are just another piece of human trash....whatever you are!!!!

Bruce said...

By the way....Daniel doesn't run my life. I don't follow anybody except my own conscience. He does raise a good point, maybe i should be a little less "over the top" so i am trying to do this on his blog. ON MY BLOG I WILL SPEAK MY MIND ANY WAY I WANT.....IF U DON'T LIKE IT.....DON"T READ IT!!!!!!!!

el razonador said...

Bruce - I don't.

Bruce said...

El Raz......GOOD !!! I don't want the likes of you posting on my blog anyway.

el razonador said...

Bruce, Bear, et al. -- The biggest problem I see with your viewpoint is that it is simply not an argument. What kind of counterpoint --- say, to a claim that I might make about changing the terms of the immigration debate from one focusing on the criminality of illegal crossing to addressing the overarching economic issues wherein lies the driving force, globally, of contemporary immigration --- is it to retort by calling me an unamerican piece of trash?

Does questioning our modus operandi, or our very presence in Iraq make me unamerican? If so, then I guess that makes an ever-increasing number of high-ranking military officials and pentagon bureaucrats unamerican too.

It must be convenient to meet any disagreement to your point of view with categorical charges of unamericanism, for it simultaneously serves two purposes: it allows you to sidestep the civic responsibility of engaging in a reasoned debate backed by fact and it allows you to assert yourselves as the "true Americans".

Here's a suggestion: How about you stop calling anyone who disagrees with you pieces of unamerican trash? It serves no pupose. In fact, reasoned, and even heated debate about the direction a democratic nation is going is healthy, about the most American thing I can think of, as it shows that the governed are engaged, and not likely to be overcome by oligarchy or tyranny.

In my humble opinion, your knee-jerk proclivity to damn as unamerican anyone who disagrees with you is a pointless exercise. If it's your rhetorical device of choice, and you are a frequent purveyor of talk-radio, you might want to wean yourself off of it, as it instills bad civic habits, and leads ultimately to a form of political robot-ism: "Unamerican, unamerican, unamerican, unamericana........."

Scottiebill said...

Out of all the postings here, only Sue, Bruce, Bear, Infidel, and Peod, and Daniel, of course, have their heads on straight. All the rest cannot make rational postings without inserting a lot of profanity, personal attacks, and inuendo. But that is typical of the ultra-liberal nut cases whose primary goal is to allow illegal aliens into the country unchecked, who regularly attack the President for everything he does, whether it is over the government's policies or how he ties his shoes, and who absolutely adore anyone who is antiAmerican.

These people should be largely ignored and looked upon with nothing but undisguised contempt.

Anonymous said...

Gotta love them conservatives


el razonador said...

Oh, well thanks so much, Scottie, for descending from on high and clearing that matter up.

At first I was disappointed to be left out of the head-on-straight club, but then thought a little more about it. Seeing that Bruce --who has called me, among other things, a "greaser" a "taco bastard" and just recently, a "piece of human trash" -- was a member, I decided it was not any club I wanted to be a part of.

Ultimately, however, thanks much for reinforcing the argument I made in my previous post.

Bob H. said...

El Razonador-I agree that it's way too easy to condemn the other persons argument via name calling. It's also too easy to lump the opposition into one group such as "Bruce, Bear, et al."
I grew up in the 50's and 60's and heard all the "my country, love it or leave it", "defy authority", "don't trust anyone over 30" to last a lifetime.
The problem is most facts quoted for pro-illegal alien don't pass the smell test with me.
1. They're here to do jobs Americans won't do-What is that? Americans have always done what it takes. I had a paper route from age 12 to 16. I picked beans and strawberrys to buy school clothes and have spending money. I started full time work washing cars and cleaning buildings at 18. I worked 3 years in a sawmill. I went to college for a couple of years and then ran out of money. I worked in the auto parts industry for over 25 years and got downsized. Now I work as a custodian and mow lawns on the side to pay bills. There are some jobs I can't do because of my age, but there are no jobs I wouldn't do.
2. They just want to feed their families. Most people do but we play by the rules. It is no secret that Mexico runs on corruption and payola. (please don't point out that that's what happens here because I agree and it makes my blood boil).
3.Our economy would tank if we removed the illegals. I doubt it. A lot of the money they earn is sent back to Mexico (their second most source of GNP, that's why the Mexican government is so eager to help them come here and retain Mexican citizenship). That means the money is no longer working here.
With Earned Income Credits, even the ones that do pay taxes are often able to receive 3-4 thousand dollars above what they paid in if they have the right amount of low income and number of dependants.
Hospitals have had to close in the border states because of all the patients that can't pay. Having one child costs between 3-5 thousand dollars. Education costs 8-10 thousand dollars per child in Oregon. Do you really think an immigrant family pays that amount in taxes?
Most of all, I resent the fact that they don't seem to want to be Americans. You see the Mexican flags, the signs in Spanish, the overwhelming number of Che t-shirts, the growing number of anti-American, anti-Anglo groups allowed on our tax supported campuses (La Rasa, Mecha,etc). The recording of the national anthem in Spanish and the taunting that they are going to take over my country only serves to widen the divide and steel my resolve to lash back. When you champion their cause, it causes me to wonder if you care about this country or if you are just against the status quo.
I too would like to ask for a little more civility and a lot less vicious personal attack on this blog please on both sides. I look forward to comments from you and Kaelri that challenge without the venomous attacks.

el razonador said...

Bob -- glad to comment.

1. They're here to do jobs Americans won't do

A consistent problem that I run into in debating this topic with people is that because they, or someone they know, would do it, they think that is the case on average. Nonetheless, good luck finding a labor economist who would disagree with this assertion. All of the published research I have ever read finds that the native-born person of working age with average education seeks work in an entirely different labor market than the average Mexican labor migrant of mean education for that group. Cutting off the labor supply from Mexico will do nothing to urge the average U.S. born American to downgrade their career aspirations out of a sense of national duty. Blame today's consumerist standards, the media, whatever. You're an exception to the rule, Bob.

2. They just want to feed their families.

As Porfirio Diaz once said: Poor Mexico. So far from God, so close to the United States. Languishing in squalor in a corrupt nation when good schools, high relative wages, and a safe civic and political culture exists so close in the U.S., I'm not going to take the high road and say that in a similar situation, I wouldn't seek a better life, at whatever cost. I hope that immigration policy might sway my judgement, but I cannot maintain that it would, especially given the seemingly endless supply of contractors and employers who are willing to look the other way.

3.Our economy would tank if we removed the illegals.

Maybe not, but it would, especially in certain industries such as food processing, construction and domestic services, take a mighty toll. Prices would most definitely rise, and we would be threatened, again, with a downgrade in the standard of living that my hunch is most Americans aren't willing to accept. Again, don't blame me; I'm as much repulsed by our consumerism and superficiality as the next observer. Moreover, we are are an economic behemoth. Deleterious impacts to our economy ripple through the world. This is not meant as a scare tactic, but avoiding a worldwide recession or even depression should at least be considered as a goal when debating this issue and its economic ramifications. Finally, an unstable Mexican economy is very much an American problem. This is made clear by the sheer amount of American-based capital investment in that country. Imagine 12 million newly deported proletarians in Mexico, now making demands on a government that likely could not withstand them, and the subsequent scenario whereby a Mexican version of Hugo Chavez comes to power. Again, not a scare tactic, but some long term considerations that should be accounted for in the debate.

As for your concerns over the assimilability of Mexicans, I don't share them. Assimilation is something that happens over generations. Second and third generation Mexicans are as likely as any other group to speak English. All of these cultural fears are merely a replay of the concerns voiced by "anglos" at the turn of the century faced with the immigration of millions of Jews, Italians, Greeks, Slavs, Polish, etc who were viewed as of an inferior race. Ethnic politics and related elements are for the most part, a first generation phenomena that primarily serve to aid those transitioning to life in a new country. Social Science literature is replete with evidence of this. The English language is safe; the universal language the world over. It's not going anywhere.

I'm not championing their cause. As I see it, we are faced with a serious issue here, and believe most of the tenets trotted out by extreme restrictionists (deport all illegals) to be wrong and short-sighted, and to carry deleterious consequences in the long-term if not thought through and debated rationally. I guess this makes me unamerican. Oh well. I believe what I believe, and always try to reassess those beliefs in the face of superior argument and evidence.

Oregon Infidel said...

El Raz-

QOUTE _ "What kind of counterpoint --- say, to a claim that I might make about changing the terms of the immigration debate from one focusing on the criminality of illegal crossing to addressing the overarching economic issues wherein lies the driving force, globally, of contemporary immigration"

Why is it that the libs belive that it is my duty as an American to take care of someone simply because we have a better standard of living in our country than they do in theirs?

I've got no problem helping those fellow Americans down on their luck, but I'm tired of tax increases and agencies screaming that they need more money because of the poor "immigrants" that are in need of:

Housing Assistance
Free Health Care
Jail Space
Court Appointed Attorneys
Free School Lunches
Free School Breakfast
ESL Teachers

and countless other expenses directly rrelated to the huge influx of Illegal Immigrants primarily from Mexico and Central America.

I'm sorry that their homelands are corrupt, third world stink-holes. But it's not my fault. Instead of popping smoke and heading "Norte". Maybe they should stay at home and work to change things rather that trying to change things here in America.

BEAR said...

The lefties would have la raza supplant us rather than properly emulate us. The che lovers (and don't even TRY to deny that, you pro-illegals) whine and reject the very economic system that makes this land so compelling to them. These hypocrisies blow any pro-illegal argument clear out of the water! Sheesh.

Anonymous said...

El & other supporters of the invasion.
@ www.americanpatrol.com you can read an article about 10 BILLIONAIRES that made their money in Mexico and are Mexican.
How? monopolies & corruption.

Mexico is NOT poor. #12 of all Nations in annual GDP, now over $1 Trillion.

Mexico is our #2 supplier of OIL.
We buy over 1.5 Million barrells a day @ $60? $70? each.

Mexico big shots are laughing all the way to the bank (& some of our biz owners as well)

Americans are sick of the demands of the Mexican people in particular because they live in a lush Country with many resources (unlike Japan)& much opportunity.
But they FLEE instead of making demands of THEIR government. Making demands of OUR Government is FUTILE, as we are the most successful melting pot on Earth and our system mostly works.

el razonador said...

Bear -- why do you persist in responding to my every argument by trying to point to some ulterior conspiritorial motive behind my argument, rather than taking it at face value. It makes me suspicious that you have nothing better to counter with.

Anon -- economists typically use gdp PER CAPITA to assess a country's well-being, not GDP. Mexico's GDP per capita is $10,100, which ranks 86th in the world, just above Botswana and just below Costa Rica; it's a poor country.


Scottiebill said...

Elrazonator - I calls them as I sees them. If you can't handle it, then that's your problem.

R Huse said...

For the life of me I will never understand how people cannot stay focused on a really simple point in Daniels post:

The US government is reporting the activities of its citizens to a foreign government. How the hell can anyone say this is ok? No one gives a rip about the government monitoring or even spying on the Minutemen. I sure don’t. Frankly I am glad, I would hope it would shame them into doing their job. The point is reporting their position to the Mexican government? How can anyone defend this? It’s not about spying; it’s about reporting to Mexico, get it through your head.

Now on to the complex economic theories supporting illegal aliens:

It is illegal to hire them. It is illegal for them to be in this country. No, all your points about them doing jobs Americans wont do, or GDP per capita comparisons are essentially non sequitars. We don’t enforce laws based on whether or not someone has a good economic theory at the time of arrest.

We have a myriad of laws that run contrary to economic interests. Things would cost less without workplace safety laws. Should we simply not enforce them? If the law says it is illegal for these aliens to be here or work here that’s it. Enforce the law. Don’t like it? Change the law. All the complex economic arguments are irrelevant when it comes to whether or not to enforce an existing law. Just as they are if someone is growing pot and the DEA comes to arrest them. “Hey wait, Im doing a job Americans wont do, I help the economy, I provide living wage jobs” Does the government consider this before prosecuting you? NO! The same should apply here.

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You're the man bruce! Keep up the good fight.

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