Tuesday, April 11, 2006

We can't arrest them all

After realizing that we can't deport 11 million illegal aliens (because you say so...) I have decided that there are some other futile endeavors that we pursue.

We can't arrest all the drug dealers. Imagine how much it would cost to arrest and house all these people all at once. [insert lame anecdote about how many busses it would take to transport drug dealers to jail]

We can't arrest all the sex offenders. There are just too many to arrest all at once. Their crimes should be ignored. [insert anecdote about how arresting all sex offenders on the same day would would affect the labor markets... these sickos do have jobs you know]

We can't arrest all the thieves. Way too many people steal. It would be way to expensive to house all that recovered stolen merchandice while we wait for it to be claimed. Plus so many security guards would lose their jobs. [insert anecdote about the loss prevention industry being vital to our economy]

Wait a minute... I just came up with an idea! Arrest these people AS YOU CATCH THEM and don't make it easier for them to commit their crimes! That just might work!

22 comments:

Anonymous said...

not only that, but take away the incentive to commit the crime.

we don't catch all thieves. but we don't have to. people know that if caught, thieves go to jail. this discourages some people from stealing.

granted, it doesn't discourage them all. but it DOES give society the message that stealing is wrong. children grow up learning that stealing is a crime. therefore, many children grow up thinking that stealing is wrong, and don't steal.

so why not take steps to cut down on the desire to come here illegally?

step one: make it clear that, if caught here illegally, you WILL be transfered back to your native country's capital, and unceremoniously dumped off with the local authorities. since many illegals here have criminal records back home, and since back home criminals often die in prison, there is suddenly a big incentive to not be here illegally. it is also a major pain to be dumped someplace. if you live in Tiujana, run across the border, get caught in San Diego, and find yourself dumped in Mexico City, you are screwed. not my problem. your problem.

step two: make it clear that, if an American citizen aids and abets an illegal alien (including knowingly employing one), he goes to jail. employers will no longer be so willing to hire illegals (and will protected by the "knowing" requirement, in cases where illegals use bogus but convincing ID). jobs will dry up. there will be less incentive to come here and risk everything.

We don't arrest every rapist. We don't arrest every murderer. We can never succeed with 100% enforcement of ANY crime. But when we make the outcome less desirable, fewer and fewer people will commit the crime. The idea is to get the bad behavior down to a level where what's left can be more realistically conrolled. Immigration reform that combines real enforcement with serious disincentives can do just that

B.M. said...

Wow, I it's funny how people just start to make up something because the think it's right, or it's coming out of the mouth of someone like Sean Hannity. Way to think that everyone coming here is a criminal.

"since many illegals here have criminal records back home"

So what happens when they arrest your boss because he has hired someone that is illegal. Like a janitor, What do you do? Lose your job too?

"if an American citizen aids and abets an illegal alien (including knowingly employing one), he goes to jail."

With this suggestion are you ready to pay the additional taxes to have this take place. What if they catch an illegal that is from China. Are you ready to have that person be flown over to his or her native country?

"it is also a major pain to be dumped someplace. if you live in Tiujana, run across the border, get caught in San Diego, and find yourself dumped in Mexico City, you are screwed. not my problem. your problem."

el razonador said...

Daniel -- the debate over whether all can be deported (though the consequences of passing an unenforceable law are serious), is only peripheral to the debate.

As Steve Fenton (2003) writes: "It should not be imagined that receiving societies unqulifiedly deplore illegal immigrants. In public they do, and 'ordinary citizens'- as against politicians - frequently join in the condemnation of illegals and the 'threat' they pose to the integrity of the receiving society. But there can be little doubt that the destination socieites frequently will tacitly condone the arrival of illegals simply because they consititute necessary labour which can scarcely be recruited from any other source. Undocumented workers have advantages over legally settled workers from the point of view of the state and of employers. If migrant workers generally are liable to exploitation, undocumented workers are liable to super-exploitation since it takes only one false move for them to be removed by their employer or threatened with exposure."

This is where the national discourse ought to be. Over the facts pertaining to this putative economic reality. That it is as vitriolic as it is on this blog site, is unfortunate. This country is in sore need of a civic retrofitting.

el razonador said...

Anonymous --

"since many illegals here have criminal records back home, and since back home criminals often die in prison, there is suddenly a big incentive to not be here illegally"

This is preposterous. Stop making stuff up.

MAX Redline said...

Hey, b.m. (appropriate moniker!)

"Way to think that everyone coming here is a criminal."

Ummm...maybe that's because they are. Granted, the first trip across the border is a slap-on-the-wrist civil violation; subsequent trips are felonies.

Damn. That sounds like "criminal" to me.

I generally don't talk politics much at work, but today I found myself in a room with an Hispanic and a fellow from East Africa. The Hispanic is the son of people who legally immigrated to the USA many years ago; the African has been in the USA for perhaps ten years and is a naturalized American citizen. Thus, both are Americans; I use the terms only to differentiate them. I found their insights interesting.

The Hispanic got the ball rolling by asking me what I thought of yesterdays "protests". I just rolled my eyes, and he laughed. "Seems to me there's an easy answer for this crap," he said, "just roll out a few hundred buses and start checking for green cards or socials. If you don't have one or the other, then you're on the bus, and you don't stop rolling until you hit the border."

"I do not understand this," the African piped in, "There are supposed to be laws! I was watching MSNBC last night and there was a man who said that he has been here illegally for nine years, and I'm thinking: Why do they not arrest this man? He has just admitted that he is breaking the law, whereby he is in this country without authorization, so why is he still here? Why is he not arrested and deported?"

Then the two got into an exchange in which the Hispanic noted that "You had to fill out the paperwork, didn't you?" To which the African responded, "Oh it is amazing, there is so much, you would not believe; I was astonished! And you must take classes, whereby you are made familiar with requirements to obtain citizenship in order to become an American. And yet these people are not following the rules; the law - they are here and I do not understand how this can be so!"

Now, I thought I was ticked off by the illegal alien problem and by yesterday's demonstrations, but these guys made my anger seem positively benign. A child of legal Mexican immigrants and a man who jumped through all the hoops to escape the poverty of his native east African country in order to build a better life as an American citizen - and they're both hopping mad over this illegal alien fiasco.

Yet our politicians just don't get it.

Liberty44 said...

Max, you are so right. The politicians do not get it at all. I have been answering a lot of immigration stuff on the Statesman-Journal "sound off" boards and it is unbelievable that the illegals do not get it either. They see no harm in coming over illegally. One even tried to tell us to go to a website where it was supposed to say we had stolen Mexico. It actually showed that Spain had freed Mexico and they kept fighting amongst themselves and totally destroyed their economy, etc. and they are still doing it. You would think after over 150 years they would have gotten it right by now. I would think that burning yourself once would teach you to try another way. Oh, I forgot, they are. They are coming into our country messing things up so they will feel more at home.

Anonymous said...

It's okay. I hear there's a cure for migraphobia...
http://www.sfgate.com/comics/fiore/

MAX Redline said...

"It's okay. I hear there's a cure for migraphobia..."

Do you read, or just poke stuff up?

If you had bothered to read, you'd have noticed that the folks I was talking with are both legal immigrants who are really ticked about all the illegals. And rightly so.

el razonador said...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/11/immigration/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The top Republicans in both the House and Senate indicated Tuesday they don't support language in an immigration bill that would make entering the country illegally a felony.

The proposal has drawn the ire of pro-immigrant groups that have staged a wave of protests in recent weeks.

The provision making illegal immigration a felony was contained in an immigration reform bill passed by the House in December. But in a joint statement issued Tuesday evening, House Speaker Dennis Hastert of Illinois and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee both indicated they wanted the language dropped.

Thomas said...

Daniel,

You and all your anti-immigrant compatriots are fighting a loosing battle. If you honestly think that Congress is going to pass some sort of legislation that is going to "deport all illegal aliens", you need to drop the pipe. They are here and they are going to stay.

As a first generation Scandanavian- American, child of an immigrant, we are going to keep up this push to protect our brothers and sisters.

I need not tell you that things are changing, not in your favor I might add. Your cause is a nativist war against immigrants and nothing more than that. Your hatred is transparent. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. You will see what we do at midterm elections to those that have waged war on the immigrant. THEY WILL BE VOTED OUT. Mark my words.

Thomas

Immigrant Bill Fallout May Hurt House GOP

Strict Provisions Are Uniting Critics

By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, April 12, 2006; Page A01

In the wake of this week's massive demonstrations, many House Republicans are worried that a tough anti-illegal-immigration bill they thought would please their political base has earned them little benefit while becoming a lightning rod for the fast-growing national movement for immigrant rights....>>>>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/11/AR2006041101643.html

R Huse said...

Illegal…. Illegal … Illegal. How hard is it to understand one damn word. Because one supports enforcing current laws and is against illegal aliens, that does not make one anti immigrant. Why? Because of the word illegal. Read it I – L – L – E – G – A – L. How brain dead do you have to be to not understand the difference and to constantly conflate opposition to illegal aliens with opposition to immigration in general. It is so damn annoying to constantly see what really is getting to be a very tired form of race baiting. Illegal, read the damn word before opening your yap and saying someone is anti immigrant.

And as for those morons who hold up signs saying Latinos, Hispanics, and Mexicans etc. were here first, forget it, you weren’t. Unless you have some sort of family tree or DNA testing that proves no one in your family ever did it with Cortez or any of the other Spanish conquerors or their descendants you aren’t going to get far with pulling that native crap with me. Got it? That’s why its called Hispanic, that’s why Spanish is a real popular language. The Spanish invaded and that’s why so many people speak Spanish. It’s not just some weird parallel language development. You aren’t some weird native who is somehow entitled to everything. You’re a mutt just like all the rest of us, your just descended from Spanish conquerors rather than English or French or what have you. Get over yourself.

Anonymous said...

Yes illegals. But get it threw YOUR head that a bill such as sensenbrenner will not get the votes necessary. It had the lowest votes on friday before congress went to 2 week break.

Thomas said...

R fuse,

You and all your anti-immigrant compatriots are fighting a loosing battle. If you honestly think that Congress is going to pass some sort of legislation that is going to "deport all illegal aliens", you need to drop the pipe. They are here and they are going to stay.

As a first generation Scandanavian- American, child of an immigrant, we are going to keep up this push to protect our brothers and sisters.

I need not tell you that things are changing, not in your favor I might add. Your cause is a nativist war against immigrants and nothing more than that. Your hatred is transparent. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. You will see what we do at midterm elections to those that have waged war on the immigrant. THEY WILL BE VOTED OUT. Mark my words.

Thomas

Immigrant Bill Fallout May Hurt House GOP

Strict Provisions Are Uniting Critics

By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, April 12, 2006; Page A01

In the wake of this week's massive demonstrations, many House Republicans are worried that a tough anti-illegal-immigration bill they thought would please their political base has earned them little benefit while becoming a lightning rod for the fast-growing national movement for immigrant rights....>>>>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/11/AR2006041101643.html

The other Thomas said...

Wow...go away for awhile and now I have to post the following:

I,(the real Thomas) did not post what "Thomas" said! Which should be apparent to those regulars who know my short, snarky comments and flippant quips.

{;-)

When I do have something to say that doesn't involve just my usual smart-a$$ remark, I'll be sure to re-identify myself, I'd hate for any mix-up to occur ya' know?

And, Daniel, my hat's off to you: you seem be able to take a whippin' yet keep on tickin'!

Have a good day!

R Huse said...

Actually I would totally agree with anonymous that the Sensenbrenner bill wont pass. I don’t exactly know where he got the idea that I thought it would since it is mentioned nowhere in my post. I will take it as simply addled logic on his part that he somehow connected the two. I was talking about conflating being against illegal aliens with being against immigration. Obviously the use of the word illegal in my post was so subtle it was missed.

At any rate I think it’s entirely true though that congress will pass some sort of back door amnesty. I also think that there will be quite a bit of outrage over it. This is one issue that there is about as close to unanimity within the American public as you can get. They want the borders secured and they want illegal aliens prosecuted. When they are sold out by their representatives in congress, as they will shortly be, I think you will see a bit of a backlash. Giant marches with illegal aliens waving Mexican flags and demanding rights with no prosecution in sight does not endear a group to the public. They see it and are angry. Why aren’t these people being prosecuted? If they want to be Americans so bad why do they wave Mexican flags? How am I supposed to have sympathy for people who wave signs that are rife with racist slogans? People see it and are revolted. Rightly so.

B.M. said...

Perhaps them coming here makes them a "criminal" that wasn't the point that I felt anonymous #1 was making, he's saying the before coming here, everyone is a criminal. Which is not neccessarily the case.

Thanks, for the compliment on my initials, it takes my back to grade school, when I would hear something like that.

jeff said...

Perfect is the enemy of good enough.

People keep whining about how if we can't do "something" 100%, we shouldn't do it at all.

Even if succeeding 50% would be a tremendous improvement over doing nothing.

Idiots.

Calhoun said...

Enforcing the law is one of our government's most basic duties.

And we have office holders saying they can't carry out their basic duties??

"You're fired."

Anonymous said...

The Democtratic leadership is betraying their base constituents, working people, African-Americans, and legal naturalized U.S. citizens, who went through the process of citizenship.

Senate Republicans like McCain and Spector are betraying the base of their party.

We will find out what politicians will stand up for the majority of the American People.

fish_on said...

Illegals' Amnesty Could Cost $60 Billion a Year, Group Says
By Randy Hall
CNSNews.com Staff Writer/Editor
April 11, 2006
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200604/NAT20060411c.html


(CNSNews.com) - If an illegal immigrant amnesty or guest worker program similar to the ones being contemplated by the U.S. Senate and supported by President Bush were enacted, the cost to state and local governments would be staggering, an immigration reform group charged Tuesday.

The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) estimates that state and local costs associated with illegal immigration for public education, health care and incarceration, now about $36 billion a year, would balloon to $61.5 billion by 2010 -- a 70 percent increase -- and increase to $106.3 billion by 2020.

As a result of an amnesty and a vastly expanded guest worker program, millions of current illegal aliens would gain legal access to government programs and services, a FAIR analysis states.

Moreover, newly legalized aliens would be allowed to bring their dependents to this country, adding to the burdens on schools and public health care. Similarly, state and local governments would have to provide for the education and health care of the dependents of the 400,000 new guest workers called for in the Senate proposal.

"From every possible angle, an illegal alien amnesty and guest worker program would be a fiscal and administrative nightmare," said Dan Stein, president of FAIR. "Never mind the fact that an illegal alien amnesty is a moral betrayal of the American public and immigrants who played by the rules.

"It would be an unfunded federal mandate that will bankrupt states, counties and cities all across the United States," Stein added.

Contrary to claims by proponents of amnesty, the tax contributions of newly legalized illegal aliens would not offset the additional costs, he stated. The estimated 12 million illegal aliens in the U.S. are overwhelmingly poorly educated and low skilled.

Even with legalization, their earning potential would be very limited, Stein noted. With the ability to legitimately claim dependents on their returns, their tax contributions would be negligible at best, and with programs like the Earned Income Tax Credit, many will actually get more back than they pay in.

None of the federal or local costs associated with an illegal alien amnesty or a massive guest worker program has even been considered as part of the Senate's deliberations, he said.

When asked point blank about the ramifications of their proposed legislation, Senate amnesty and guest worker supporters admitted that they have not been worked out. "The devil is in the details," said the ranking Democrat on the Judiciary Committee, Patrick Leahy of Vermont.

"'The devil is in the details' is an utterly reckless and irresponsible way to conduct public policy," responded Stein. "The fiscal, social, environmental and demographic consequences of what the Senate is proposing would be staggering.

"In an effort to respond to special interest pressure, the Senate and the Bush administration seem prepared to rush forward without any rational assessment of what it would mean for the future of the nation," he noted.

"We have seen where the 'devil is in the details' approach has gotten us in Iraq. The president and others pushing amnesty and guest workers have an obligation to think this one all the way through before acting," Stein concluded.

A breakdown of the calculation of amnesty costs and a state by state impact analysis can be found at FAIR's website.
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_localcosts

John Dunshee said...

If we're going to throw the gates open to all the uneducated, unskilled immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America then we're going to have to accept the educated, skilled immigrants from the rest of the world.

A commenter on my blog told of a friend whose high tech job in Hillsboro was being outsourced to Bangalore. Employers will no longer have to outsource, they can just hire from the thousands of skilled laborers from India, China or wherever that are willing to come to America. No more worry about complying with H2 visas.

We can hire our unskilled labor from Mexico and our skilled labor from other countries, that will leave exactly what for indigenous Americans?

Sure, we can pass laws, but we don’t enforce the ones we have now they’re going to know that any future laws will be equally useless.

Go out to Intel and look at how many Indian engineers they have working there. They are smart, they work hard and when they took "bilingual education” it was because they wanted to learn English. Why are they working there? Because employers couldn’t find Americans with the necessary skills. With the immigration gates open they can hire even more to fill their positions. Why hire a slacker American when you can get a hardworking foreigner.

My sister-in-law used to work in a cannery here. When the Vietnamese came she was complaining that they worked too hard and made everyone else look bad. The employers that hire Mexican illegals prefer to do so because they work harder than the American born high school dropouts that they would have to hire if the illegals weren’t there. The employers of skilled workers will do the same. If they have a choice between an American who partied his way through college and an Asian that studied and excelled, you know who they’re going to hire. Those round eyes and American birth certificate aren’t going to impress them one bit.

If we're going to take some, we have to take them all. If amnesty passes, look for a mad rush not only from our southern neighbor, but from every country in the world. All it will take is a plane ticket and a tourist visa to get here, and they will face no danger of being deported as they wait for the next amnesty.

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