Thursday, April 06, 2006

Immigration bill update

Previously we read a news item that showed the immigration bill was going to go something like this:

Criminal for more than 5 years you stay.

Criminal for more than 2 years you stay but we pretend you "went home."

Criminal less than 2 years we actually do what the laws says we are supposed to do now.

Clearly this is unworkable because it will be impossible to verify how long these criminals have been committing their crimes. They will lie for this just like they lie when they get a job, are stopped by the police, or say "I didn't know she was 14."

Second the government beuaracracy that would have to be set up to listen to these lies has not been established and would be an utter failure.

And last... IT'S AMNESTY!

So thankfully the genius architects of this bill in the senate have come up with a much simpler way of deciding which criminals they reward and which ones will simply continue to ignore the law.

If you are a criminal alien and you sign a pledge that you will vote for McCain then you stay, everyone else goes.

But even this plan has flaws, while illegal aliens were proven to vote in Washington's gubernatorial election, the one that resulted in 2 recounts and was decided by 42 votes, most are too busy selling drugs and raping young girls to vote.


Sue K. said...

I keep hearing that it would be impossible to deport the 11 or 12 million (probably more) illegal aliens in the United States. Then just how do they (federal government) think that 11 or 12 million illegals can be "processed"? Just like everything else our government does. If this latest version of the immigration bill is passed, it won't be long until things are back to business as usual (in other words, nothing being done about the illegal problem).

Anonymous said...

Excerpts from George Washington's farewell speech.

The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts.

For this you have every inducement of sympathy and interest. Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of american, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together; the Independence and Liberty you possess are the work of joint counsels, and joint efforts, of common dangers, sufferings, and successes.


To the efficacy and permanency of your Union, a Government for the whole is indispensable. No alliances, however strict, between the parts can be an adequate substitute; they must inevitably experience the infractions and interruptions, which all alliances in all times have experienced. Sensible of this momentous truth, you have improved upon your first essay, by the adoption of a Constitution of Government better calculated than your former for an intimate Union, and for the efficacious management of your common concerns. This Government, the offspring of our own choice, uninfluenced and unawed, adopted upon full investigation and mature deliberation, completely free in its principles, in the distribution of its powers, uniting security with energy, and containing within itself a provision for its own amendment, has a just claim to your confidence and your support. Respect for its authority, compliance with its laws, acquiescence in its measures, are duties enjoined by the fundamental maxims of true Liberty. The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their Constitutions of Government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. The very idea of the power and the right of the people to establish Government presupposes the duty of every individual to obey the established Government.

All obstructions to the execution of the Laws, all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency. They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation, the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels, and modified by mutual interests.


Towards the preservation of your government, and the permanency of your present happy state, it is requisite, not only that you steadily discountenance irregular oppositions to its acknowledged authority, but also that you resist with care the spirit of innovation upon its principles, however specious the pretexts. One method of assault may be to effect, in the forms of the constitution, alterations, which will impair the energy of the system, and thus to undermine what cannot be directly overthrown. In all the changes to which you may be invited, remember that time and habit are at least as necessary to fix the true character of governments, as of other human institutions; that experience is the surest standard, by which to test the real tendency of the existing constitution of a country; that facility in changes, upon the credit of mere hypothesis and opinion, exposes to perpetual change, from the endless variety of hypothesis and opinion; and remember, especially, that, for the efficient management of our common interests, in a country so extensive as ours, a government of as much vigor as is consistent with the perfect security of liberty is indispensable. Liberty itself will find in such a government, with powers properly distributed and adjusted, its surest guardian. It is, indeed, little else than a name, where the government is too feeble to withstand the enterprises of faction, to confine each member of the society within the limits prescribed by the laws, and to maintain all in the secure and tranquil enjoyment of the rights of person and property.

Rob said...

Well if that is the case (and it is not) and they actually elected Gregoire (which they didn't), then we should import more illegals and get them registered. Lord knows, Dino "the cry baby" Rossi is too much of a jackass to ever run the State of Washington.

The best hope he had was to claim election fraud like a whiny little wimp and throw off the election. His whole campaign was based on claiming election fraud. By looking at the voting rolls, it indicates more election fraud on the Republican side than the Democratic one.

How any bozo like Rossi could ever stand a chance is beyond me. He was a lame state senator and even more lame at selling houses. He should just stick to selling worthless books to the Republican idiots that will buy them. Maybe someday he'll have his own conservative talk show where he can whine and cry about how he lost the election to a woman. Boo hoo

Rob said...

Well if that is the case (and it is not) and they actually elected Gregoire (which they didn't), then we should import more illegals and get them registered. Lord knows, Dino "the cry baby" Rossi is too much of a jackass to ever run the State of Washington.

The best hope he had was to claim election fraud like a whiny little wimp and throw off the election. His whole campaign was based on claiming election fraud. By looking at the voting rolls, it indicates more election fraud on the Republican side than the Democratic one.

How any bozo like Rossi could ever stand a chance is beyond me. He was a lame state senator and even more lame at selling houses. He should just stick to selling worthless books to the Republican idiots that will buy them. Maybe someday he'll have his own conservative talk show where he can whine and cry about how he lost the election to a woman. Boo hoo

Anonymous said...

If this bill doesn't pass then McCains bill still has another chance. McCains Bill did not pass the voting. It needed I think 9 more votes. BUT if this bill fails to get 60 votes tomorrow at 9:30am. Then they will call a two week recess and then McCains bill can have another shot at it

However, I think this bill is a fair bill. President George W. Bush Approved it Thursday night, and Bill Frist Likes it too.
Republicans also came to a agreement, and they approve of the bill as well. :-D

Tomorow they will vote on this bill :)

Bob H. said...

Daniel, you gotta look a an editorial written by Ronald F. Maxwell at NUMBERS USA. It is an extremely well written plea to George Bush on this issue. Maxwell has produced several Civil War documentaries.

dchamil said...

Right on, bob h. The WashTimes link for the Maxwell article is right here. I found it at

MAX Redline said...

It is clear that there are a couple of things about the situation that the government either doesn't - or more likely, simply refuses to - get:

They keep braying that illegals here do jobs that Americans won't do. That's a lie. Due to governmental interference, kids are now prevented from working in the fields like I did when I was a kid. The government created this situation; it could - and should - undo it.

"A path to citizenship." Folks, these people don't WANT to become citizens! Get that through your head, Mssrs. Bush, McCain, and others....

Anonymous said...

Well...actually some do want to be become citizens. So don't speak your mouth when in fact you don't know.

el razonador said...

Max -- That kids belong in school and not in the fields as a way of modern progress was a conclusion that most industrialized nations realized about 150 years ago, at least. Returning kids to the fields is an absurd notion. The days of family farming are long gone and the agribusiness fat cats are not interested in employing your children so that they might learn the virtues of good work and understand the dignity of working people. Moreover, if the government were to relax child work restrictions, the responsibility for safeguarding against the exploitation of child labor would fall to the parents. Why in the hell would the agribusiness want to take on that situation, when they can exploit the labor of poor undocumented Mexicans with no recourse for complaint if working conditions are unfair?

Furthermore, the percentage of undocumented immigrants laboring in the agricultural sector is growing increasingly small, only 13% according to an estimate by the Pew Hispanic Center. 21% are private household hires; 14% are in food processing (e.g. meatpacking), 13% in furniture mfg; 12% in construction; 12% in textiles; 12% in food services; 11%in administrative support and services; 10% in hotels; 6% in manufacturing and 2% in other industries.

5% of the workforce is undocumented. That the unemployment rate hovers around 5% doesn't imply that there is a pool of American citizen workers available to take the jobs of the undocumented. Someone with an advanced degree simply is not going to take a job processing chickens in a poultry packing plant. Whether you think they should, is another issue altogether, but economic theory maintains that that person's time is better spent searching for more gainful employment with prospects of upward mobility than taking the first dead-end job to come along.

So, your claim that undocumented immigrants do the work that Americans won't do is a "lie" runs counter to most common knowledge, and it is an assertion for which I have never seen empirical support. Your wholesale claim also that illegals don't want to become citizens also lacks any support besides what you conclude from seeing someone fly the Mexican flag. In the 1920s, American citizens who immigrated from Mexico displayed the flag as a symbol of pride in their origins, but simultaneously fully participated in American civic, educational, military and economic life.

IRCA didn't work because the federal government didn't hold up its end of the bargain of enforcing the workplace. That the current discussion continues to revolve around the desirability of the immigrants rather than holding employers accountable is unfortunate, and suggests that we'll go in the same direction again.

Anonymous said...

Hey Max you Puta, I want to become a citizen. Comprende?

MAX Redline said...

Oh yeah - some do want to become citizens. Nothing is ever 100%.

Gee, you break our laws, you lose your chance. Tough nuts.

And of course all those fine folks at La Raza and Mecha just want an opportunity to become productive American citizens. So don't speak your mouth when in fact you don't know. Right back atcha, anonymouse.


You ever been on a farm? I have, many, many times. Let me enlighten you for a bit, Raz - the orchards in Hood River aren't run by one huge agriconglomeate. They're privately owned.

I went to school and worked in the fields when I was a kid; today's children could certainly benefit from the experience.

The government can, and should relax the restrictions on child labor, which have become unduly onerous. I'm not talking about sending five-year-olds out to work, but if I could do it between ages ten and eighteen, then I believe other kids could as well.

Further, there's no need to quote stats at me, as I'm very familiar with them. I chose agriculture as an example because of all the blather about the illegals doing jobs that Americans won't do. I was trying to keep the post short. In fact, your stats do little more than point up my view that these people are here illegally and doing jobs that many Americans WILL do. In essence, they are stealing from us.

I have no problem with permitting a controlled flow of documented aliens into the country to fill available vacant jobs. I have a huge problem with (a) referring to illegal aliens as "undocumented immigrants" and (b)allowing them to scamper back and forth across our border at whim.

While I agree that employers can - and should - be held accountable, there is at present no reliable means to do so. This argues in favor of requiring tamper-resistant documentation which can be easily verified. If such a program were to be implemented, it would have two effects: (a) it would be far easier to track and punish renegade employers and (b) it would slow the tide of illegal entry dramatically.

Note that I use the term "illegal entry" rather than "undocumented immigration". There's a reason for that.

MAX Redline said...

"Hey Max you Puta, I want to become a citizen. Comprende?"

Hey anonymouse you Puta, go home and apply for legal residence. Got it?

Roger Doger said...

No Max Puta, I think anon should stay. You get out of MY country and go live in Iraq, being you republicans love it so much. GOT IT!

Anonymous said...

I've worked in farms yes! And I want citizen this is why I know what these people are going through. So why don't you ush it up and don't just talk about what's best for you! And think about these people. Comprendes español? Si no aprende! Because you'll need it!

MAX Redline said...

Hey rogdog, I got a better idea:

why don't you pull out and go live someplace where you'll feel more comfy? I imagine any totalitarian regime will suit your needs.

MAX Redline said...


"I've worked in farms yes! And I want citizen this is why I know what these people are going through. So why don't you ush it up and don't just talk about what's best for you! And think about these people. Comprendes español? Si no aprende! Because you'll need it!"

You and your pals had better brush up on your English - because you'll need it.

This is my country, and I'm not giving it up.

If you're here legally, more power to you. If you're here illegally, I'll be happy to drive you back to your home country.

If you want to become an American citizen, then great! I invite you to go through the process required by law.

Texas said...

Mexico is the same as it ever was. Same old thing, different day. Wake up Oregon!


When a government has ceased to protect the lives, liberty and property of the people from whom its legitimate powers are derived, and for the advancement of whose happiness it was instituted; and so far from being a guarantee for the enjoyment of those inestimable and inalienable rights, becomes an instrument in the hands of evil rulers for their oppression; when the Federal Republican Constitution of their country, which they have sworn to support, no longer has a substantial existence, and the whole nature of their government has been forcibly changed without their consent, from a restricted federative republic, composed of sovereign states, to a consolidated central military despotism, in which every interest is disregarded but that of the army and the priesthood – both the eternal enemies of civil liberty, and the ever-ready minions of power, and the usual instruments of tyrants; When long after the spirit of the Constitution has departed, moderation is at length, so far lost, by those in power that even the semblance of freedom is removed, and the forms, themselves, of the constitution discontinued; and so far from their petitions and remonstrances being regarded, the agents who bear them are thrown into dungeons; and mercenary armies sent forth to force a new government upon them at the point of the bayonet. When in consequence of such acts of malfeasance and abdication, on the part of the government, anarchy prevails, and civil society is dissolved into its original elements: In such a crisis, the first law of nature, the right of self-preservation – the inherent and inalienable right of the people to appeal to first principles and take their political affairs into their own hands in extreme cases – enjoins it as a right towards themselves and a sacred obligation to their posterity, to abolish such government and create another in its stead, calculated to rescue them from impending dangers, and to secure their future welfare and happiness. Nations, as well as individuals, are amenable for their acts to the public opinion of mankind. A statement of a part of our grievances is, therefore, submitted to an impartial world, in justification of the hazardous but unavoidable step now taken of severing our political connection with the Mexican people, and assuming an independent attitude among the nations of the earth.

The Mexican government, by its colonization laws, invited and induced the Anglo-American population of Texas to colonize its wilderness under the pledged faith of a written constitution, that they should continue to enjoy that constitutional liberty and republican government to which they had been habituated in the land of their birth, the United States of America. In this expectation they have been cruelly disappointed, inasmuch as the Mexican nation has acquiesced in the late changes made in the government by General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, who, having overturned the constitution of his country, now offers us the cruel alternative either to abandon our homes, acquired by so many privations, or submit to the most intolerable of all tyranny, the combined despotism of the sword and the priesthood.

It has sacrificed our welfare to the state of Coahuila, by which our interests have been continually depressed, through a jealous and partial course of legislation carried on at a far distant seat of government, by a hostile majority, in an unknown tongue; and this too, notwithstanding we have petitioned in the humblest terms, for the establishment of a separate state government, and have, in accordance with the provisions of the national constitution, presented the general Congress, a republican constitution which was without just cause contemptuously rejected.

It incarcerated in a dungeon, for a long time, one of our citizens, for no other cause but a zealous endeavor to procure the acceptance of our constitution and the establishment of a state government.

It has failed and refused to secure on a firm basis, the right of trial by jury; that palladium of civil liberty, and only safe guarantee for the life, liberty, and property of the citizen.

It has failed to establish any public system of education, although possessed of almost boundless resources (the public domain) and, although, it is an axiom, in political science, that unless a people are educated and enlightened it is idle to expect the continuance of civil liberty, or the capacity for self-government.

It has suffered the military commandants stationed among us to exercise arbitrary acts of oppression and tyranny; thus trampling upon the most sacred rights of the citizen and rendering the military superior to the civil power.

It has dissolved by force of arms, the state Congress of Coahuila and Texas, and obliged our representatives to fly for their lives from the seat of government; thus depriving us of the fundamental political right of representation.

It has demanded the surrender of a number of our citizens, and ordered military detachments to seize and carry them into the Interior for trial; in contempt of the civil authorities, and in defiance of the laws and constitution.

It has made piratical attacks upon our commerce; by commissioning foreign desperadoes, and authorizing them to seize our vessels, and convey the property of our citizens to far distant ports of confiscation.

It denies us the right of worshipping the Almighty according to the dictates of our own consciences, by the support of a national religion calculated to promote the temporal interests of its human functionaries rather than the glory of the true and living God.

It has demanded us to deliver up our arms; which are essential to our defense, the rightful property of freemen, and formidable only to tyrannical governments.

It has invaded our country, both by sea and by land, with intent to lay waste our territory and drive us from our homes; and has now a large mercenary army advancing to carry on against us a war of extermination.

It has, through its emissaries, incited the merciless savage, with the tomahawk and scalping knife, to massacre the inhabitants of our defenseless frontiers.

It hath been, during the whole time of our connection with it, the contemptible sport and victim of successive military revolutions and hath continually exhibited every characteristic of a weak, corrupt and tyrannical government.

These, and other grievances, were patiently borne by the people of Texas until they reached that point at which forbearance ceases to be a virtue. We then took up arms in defense of the national constitution. We appealed to our Mexican brethren for assistance. Our appeal has been made in vain. Though months have elapsed, no sympathetic response has yet been heard from the Interior. We are, therefore, forced to the melancholy conclusion that the Mexican people have acquiesced in the destruction of their liberty, and the substitution therefor of a military government – that they are unfit to be free and incapable of self-government.

The necessity of self-preservation, therefore, now decrees our eternal political separation.

We, therefore, the delegates, with plenary powers, of the people of Texas, in solemn convention assembled, appealing to a candid world for the necessities of our condition, do hereby resolve and DECLARE that our political connection with the Mexican nation has forever ended; and that the people of Texas do now constitute a FREE, SOVEREIGN and INDEPENDENT RE-PUBLIC, and are fully invested with all the rights and attributes which properly belong to the independent nations; and, conscious of the rectitude of our intentions, we fearlessly and confidently commit the issue to the decision of the Supreme Arbiter of the destinies of nations.

Charles B. Stewart
Thos Barnett
John S.D. Byrom
Franco Ruiz
J. Antonio Navarro
Jesse B. Badgett
Wm D. Lacey
William Menefee
Jn0 Fisher
Mathew Caldwell
William Mottley
Lorenzo de Zavala
Stephen H. Everitt
Geo W. Smyth
Elijah Stapp
Claiborne West
Wm B. Scates
M.B. Menard
A.B. Hardin
J.W. Bunton
Thos J. Gasley
R. M. Coleman
Sterling C. Robertson
Benj. Briggs Goodrich
G.W. Barnett
James G. Swisher
Jesse Grimes
S. Rhoads Fisher
John W. Moore
John W. Bower
Saml A. Maverick from Bejar
Sam P. Carson
A. Briscoe
J.B. Woods
Jas Collinsworth
Edwin Waller
Asa Brigham
Geo. C. Childress
Bailey Hardeman
Rob. Potter
Thomas Jefferson Rusk
Chas. S. Taylor
John S. Roberts
Robert Hamilton
Collin McKinney
Albert H. Latimer
James Power
Sam Houston
David Thomas
Edwd Conrad
Martin Parmer
Edwin O. LeGrand
Stephen W. Blount
Jas Gaines
Wm Clark, Jr.
Sydney O. Penington
Wm Carrol Crawford
Jno Turner
Test. H.S. Kimble, Secretary

el razonador said...

Max --

I was raised in a rural area and have spent enough time branding cattle, bailing hay and fixing fence to know what the setting is like. What this has to do with whether my previous point was valid, I have no idea.

I'll leave you to pursue your crusade for relaxing the child labor laws. I think its ridiculous.

As for the case of the privately owned orchards, it is unfortunately not the norm in present day. Agriculture is overwhelmingly a large corporate enterprise nationally and globally. This is indisputable, a classic case of progressive (I don't mean in the ideological sense) capitalism.

The numbers I listed don't prove your point. There is a difference between an industry and an occupation. Within each industry there are several strata of occupations. Immigrants (especially the "illegal" ones -- happy now?) are overwhelmingly concentrated in the least remunerated occupations, doing the jobs most Americans don't want to do. I'll spare you the statistics, per your request.

Anonymous said...

Max- drive me to my country? Ha-ha-ha-ha

now do you really think that will happen?
I don't.

I think thell be a great bill coming from the senate. So you can save your gas on that one buddy.

Daniel said...

anon, what happened to your "great bill" today?

I'll chip in for your bus ride home when you can no longer get a job here...

Anonymous said...

I called Immigration enforcement (ICE) today and told them to come to the rally and enforce immigration laws.
She said "We cannot confirm if we will be there or not"
"As in any criminal investigation, you do not tell the bad guys you will be coming"
PRAY they show and do their job!
This would STOP criminals from marching in our streets trying to demand "Rights" they do not have.
I reminded her that they SPIT at you and LAUGH at your NON-enforcement. Just for encouragement.

Anonymous said...

Daniel- yes I know my great bill didn't get the votes that it needed. But this is all political stuff. This bill will receive the votes necessary when congress comes back from break. It didn't receive votes necessary because some democrats thought they were being tricked by the republicans by having some hr 4437 stuff in it. So this is a good thing. So far so good.

Anon- immigration inforcement can't just go out and take people in. they don't have a right to just accuse them of being undocumented. They can get sued if they take in the wrong people. This is why they probably won't show up.

Scottiebill said...

No, anonymous, tahe bill will get the votes to pass when the congress rewrites it so it makes some sense, instead of the aberration they tried to pass yesterday.

Scottiebill said...

Rob, It's not that Rossi lost the election because of election fraud on the part of the Republicans. Rather, he lost the election on the third recount after he had won the first two. He lost because of the illegal voters and the dead voters in King County. The Dumocrats kept the recounts going until they got the results they wanted. Kind of like Tammany Hall a hundred years ago under Boss Tweed. I do not know Rossi. But I can't help but think that he would have done a good job as governor of Washington, certainly better than Gregoire has done. Probably better. I'm sure he wouldn't have allowed the legislature to raise the motor vehicle licensing fees (by almost 1/3 in my case) without consent of the people. State law set the licensing fees when that law was passed 4 or 5 years ago. But Gregoire and her Dumocrat controlled legislature ignored the law and raised them anyway. And that is but one example of her nefarious actions as governor. It is almost like she is following Teddy the K's lead, except she is doing something, whereas Teddy the K has done virtually nothing while he has been Oregon's governor.

Anonymous said...

Deporting 11+ million illegal aliens has never been tried. The laws have never been enforced, if ever. So they don't know if it would work or not.

Also, an amnesty bill might pass the Senate with those traitor senators, BUT any bill coming out of the Senate that has ANY amnesty in it is Dead On Arrival when it gets to the House of Representatives. This has been made very clear by members of the House of Representatives. They have said that any amnesty bill coming to them will be killed outright. There will never be any amnesty.

Also, when the November elections get here, there is going to be hell to pay for the pro-illegal alien amnesty politicians. The kind of remarks I have seen on some web sites and some statistics that I have seen, indicate that a large number of registered voters intend to vote out of office any politician who is in favor of amnesty and illegal aliens. They say that they intend to vote out of office all pro-illegal alien politicians for the next 3 election cycles until only anti-illegal alien politicians are left. This means that the next President of the United States will be an anti-illegal alien president who will deport all illegal aliens and build a wall on the border and no amnesty and no more anchor babies being given U.S. citizenship. On Bill Frist's blog at, the poll results as of right now, show 93% of people opposed to amnesty.

These illegal aliens are criminals and they MUST be deported and barred permanently from this country and these criminals will try to illegally re-enter this country by any means possible, so they must be FORCIBLY kept out for the rest of their lives, by any means necessary, even if it results in their deaths.

President Eisenhower [what a man!] actually ordered the mass deportation of illegal alien mexicans in 1954 in what was called Operation Wetback. They managed to round up and deport 1.3 million or more illegal alien mexicans back to Mexico in 3 to 4 months. So, deporting 11+ million illegal aliens CAN be done but it will take some time and money, but it will be much less expensive than letting these criminals remain here and bankrupt our country.