Wednesday, July 13, 2005

The great debate: Logic & Facts VS. You Dummy

Blogs are a great way to disseminate news (read tomorrow's Fishwrapper stories today) but also to have an open dialogue. There are a regular group of people who comment here whose contributions are very much appreciated and usually I respond in the comments section, but today I am going to break down the typical liberal argument made by one reader, "Christian," regarding my post of illegal aliens that are in the Washington County Jail. Here is his comment:

Daniel, you racist son-of-bitch! Just because child-molesting kidnappers are overwhelmingly middle-aged and white, I don't go around assuming that every middle-aged white guy is a twisted fucking child molester. In parallel, an estimated 30 to 39 percent of the foreign-born in Oregon are here without proper documentation. Not all foreign born are Hispanic, and not all Hispanics are foreign born. Rather, the overwhelming majority, 96%, of undocumented immigrants participate in the labor force.

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You are generalizing the bad actions of a very small proportion of a group to an entire population. Your project here is nothing more than a sad and desperate attempt to deal with your xenophobic fears. Get over it and debate the bigger issues.

What the hell do any of you care about "the efforts of people who come here legally" when you engage in such hysteric and ugly cultural stereotyping. What the fuck do you know about other cultures? Get off your asses and go experience something and stop trying to blame others for your problems. Is this non-pc enough for you?

Liberals always start their arguments with an accusation. More often than not it is an accusation that you are prejudice or racist. Liberals employ this argument because it usually puts people on the defensive. For liberals it is worse to be a "racist" than it is to be a child-molesting drug addict. I simply disregard the name-calling.

Most likely if the liberal accuses you of being racist they will follow with an irrelevant comparison using the "white male" as a potential stereotype "victim." Christian's specific argument in this case is not valid for several reasons:

First, as a father, I do assume that everyone is a child-molester. Do not have that attitude is dangerous and I am responsible for protecting my kids.

Second, my original post had nothing to do with stereotypes. I simply listed all the Washington County inmates who had an ICE (immigration and customs enforcement) hold. These are people who have broken the law, not simply rounded up because of their skin color, ethnicity, or cultural background.

So Christian's argument attempted to redefine my original point which was that illegal aliens continue to commit crimes disproportionately more than the general population. That most illegal aliens are Hispanic is a fact but did not factor into my list. I took all applicable names.

Christian then rattles off several "statistics" that did not seem to support any argument he was making. Presumably he was making the point that "only" 30 - 39% of foreign born people in the US being illegal aliens is far less that the percentage of "middle-aged white guys" who are child molesters. Even I am not so jaded as to believe we have that many perverts.

The liberal will usually realize that he must throw in a factual (and non-debatable) statement in around now so Christian makes the non-point of:

"Not all foreign born are Hispanic, and not all Hispanics are foreign born."

I would assume that the above statement goes without saying. But by saying something that is true and also keeping the argument focused on my "racism," Christian feels like he is making progress.

Christian then points out that not only have these illegal aliens broken our immigration laws but that 96% of them violate our employment laws as well. I'm not sure how this helps his case (I don't care if the illegal alien had a job when he got pulled over for that DUII) and his number is suspect anyways.

A liberal then will attempt to source his information by naming some ridiculous group/poll who agrees with them. HRC will always say that homosexuality is great and you are "born that way" while AFA will say otherwise. Both groups have various "reports" (scientific and otherwise) to back up their conclusion.

Example statement from Urban institute homepage: Broader access to public health insurance programs has kept the number of Americans without coverage from skyrocketing in this economic downturn. Urban Institute health experts explain why.

Real nonpartisan...

Since the original accusation of "racist" does not always work the liberal may follow up with a more sophisticated name, in this case "xenophobic." This is simply a change from "dummy" to "imbecile." It is basically the same thing but now Christian feels more sophisticated.

Christian leaves us with a hilarious comment referring to "any of you" in a general way (presumably referring to myself and people who read this blog) and then accusing "us" of generalizing people. This is to make me the issue rather than what we were originally talking about.

"We" are then told to go "experience something." I'm not sure what the last comment has to do with drug dealers, child-molesters, murderers, and drunk drivers who are in our county illegally but that is my point.

Any time you debate a liberal they will call names, redefine the issue or re-frame the question, make false comparisons, cite liberal groups as evidence, make more personal accusations, then make you the issue before coming up with a "get over it" or some other silly comment that they think should be the end of the conversation.

The important thing is that you realize that liberals are wrong about everything and that you don't hurt your head banging it on the wall when talking to them.


12 comments:

Christian said...

Daniel -- interesting analysis. you missed all of my points, but interesting nonetheless.

Problem is: I'm registered Republican and voted for W in the last two elections.

I'm troubled by the likes of you in our party. You're threatening to cause us to lose the next election.

I have a lot of friends of Mexican ancestry who are voting citizens. They vote Republican. Viva Bush! But when they read things like:

"The only culture less creative with their names are the arabs (mohammed mohammed). Can we just stick with one Francisco please? <--- this is the comment that libs use to "prove" I'm a racist. They will be more outraged that I make fun of someone's name than they are that this guy committed sex abuse."

they say it smacks of racism and makes them question the party that they are in and that we are becoming. It pisses me and them of to hear you downplay their sense of racism as mere whining and whipping out of the race card! And then to suggest that people of this culture, those who feel discriminated against, and I'm talking about Republicans, mind you, are any less disgusted by child molesters?! Jesus Christ!

I don't want to be affiliated with a party of racists. I personally think your off the mark on immigration. News reports and anecdotal evidence often distort the bigger economic picture.

Take up this debate. I suggest doing it in terms that isn't going to lose us the White House. If that happens, you'll certainly have bigger fish to fry.

Anonymous said...

Dear Christian; Can't think of one terror attack in the USA, EXCEPT, Oklahoma, that wasn't Muslim based.

Can't think of ANY bombings except IRA in Britian last ten years that were not Muslim based.

Can't find really any that were not Muslim Based world wide that isn't same deal.

Am I FOR RACIAL PROFILING??? damn right I am.

July 15, 2004
Author: Al-Qaida Has Nuclear Weapons Inside U.S.
A new book, Osama's Revenge, lays out the evidence. From NewsMax:

A new book written by a former FBI consultant claims that al-Qaida not only has obtained nuclear devices, but also likely has them in the U.S. and will detonate them in the near future.
These chilling allegations appear in "Osama's Revenge: The Next 9/11: What the Media and the Government Haven't Told You," by Paul L. Williams (Prometheus Books).

Williams claims that al-Qaida has been planning a spectacular nuclear attack using six or seven suitcase nuclear bombs that would be detonated simulantaneously in U.S. cities.

"They want the most bang for the buck, and that is nuclear," Williams told NewsMax.

"I expect such an attack would come between now and the end of 2005," the author said.

In addition to writing several books on terrorism, Williams, an investigative journalist, has worked as an FBI consultant.

Williams' contention is not far from what U.S. intelligence believes, a source close to Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge has told NewsMax. The source said Ridge claimed that U.S. intelligence believes terrorists already have smuggled into the U.S. actual atomic devices, as opposed to so-called "dirty nukes" that simply are conventional bombs that help spread radiation.

Doctor Paul Williams will meet with a US senator in DC this week.

I think diversity, will kill a bunch of us SOON..so go ahead and support it all you want. I'm not going to die for it.

Sue K. said...

I'm registered as an Independent but voted for Bush in the last two elections also. I'd have to say I vote mostly Republican but will vote for who I feel is the best person.

Christian, why do you feel that people like Daniel is threatening the Republicans to lose the next election? In my opinion, if anything is going to make the Republicans lose the White House, it will be some of the Republicans who currently hold offices and appear to either not accomplish much or go completely against the people's wishes. I have said this before and I will say it again, I am losing faith in Bush because he won't even address the problem of our borders' security and the number of illegal immigrants in this country. Yes, at this point, I would vote Democrat if a decent candidate came along that would address those issues. If Bush and the current Republicans don't do something soon then that is why they would lose the next election.

Daniel said...

I sure am glad you aren't a Republican strategist Christian. You say you are a Republican but guess what, so is Ben Westlund, so is John McCain, so is Arlen Specter but I don't consider any of them or you to be conservatives.

I'm troubled by the likes of you in our party! I don't care if you or your friends think that I'm a racist, and you are a bunch of whiners.

If Republicans lose the next election it is because they can't act like winners, refuse to address the border issue which has HUGE popular support among all demographics, (except illegal aliens) and allow RINO's like you to define us.

I notice that while you call my analysis "interesting" you don't bother to refute anything I said. You just changed the subject to make it about me again. The whole "I'm a racist" thing. But I hope that you will continue commenting because it really does make for interesting conversation.

Daniel said...

Take a look at the poll results at the American Conservative Union.
HERE

Again, talking about conservatives, not Republicans.

jwalker said...

1. Israel,to avoid even more terrorist bombings,has been racially profiling for years in their airports. They have learned that PC rhetoric doesn't bring back the dead.

2. "Go experience something" : I became a conservative AFTER I had lived life for awhile (paying taxes, working a real job, etc, etc.)

3. I think I don't want to pay for illegals sitting in jail commiting crimes against my people. Why is this wrong?

4. Thank you Daniel for the comment about being suspicious of everyone. Me too.

Anonymous said...

I am so glad to read that there are people that understand that 11-20 Millon people, with random indentity, is NOT good or safe.
Terrorists LOVE loopholes, our state OR. is one of only 5 Nationwide, where they can get state issued photo ID, a Driver's License, legally. A great tool to open a Bank account, get a place to live, get a car, etc. and hide from any watch lists. Liberals, you remember 9-11? Those 19 Killers had 63 ID's, 'cause there Visa's were expired dummie!
I heard the Author of the book on Nukes from Osama via Mexico on the Radio. He had names, dates, he is a professor, a PHD & a collaborator for the FBI.
Somebody please prove that he is wrong!

The Rambling Taoist said...

Second, my original post had nothing to do with stereotypes. I simply listed all the Washington County inmates who had an ICE (immigration and customs enforcement) hold. These are people who have broken the law, not simply rounded up because of their skin color, ethnicity, or cultural background.

So Christian's argument attempted to redefine my original point which was that illegal aliens continue to commit crimes disproportionately more than the general population. That most illegal aliens are Hispanic is a fact but did not factor into my list. I took all applicable names.


This point represents a GIANT leap. If the police/INS use racial profiling to decide which "criminals" to arrest, then latinos will OF COURSE represent a larger number of the incarcerated.

In addition, you're ASSUMING that just because they've been picked up that they're guilty. What if it turns out 90% of the them are innocent? That would certainly change someone's perception of the number.

Daniel said...

Speaking of "giant leaps" Trey, there have never ever ever been a 90% "innocence" rate and there never ever will be.

And do you have any "evidence" that the police use racial profiling or is that just something you say?

The Rambling Taoist said...

Speaking of "giant leaps" Trey, there have never ever ever been a 90% "innocence" rate and there never ever will be.

Point well taken. Let's say then it's 50/50.

And do you have any "evidence" that the police use racial profiling or is that just something you say?

I'm sure I can dig up some stats, but I am going on info from Latino and Black friends. The Black Commentator just featured a piece that lists the 10 worst places to be black (based on incarceration rates). Oregon made the list!

Ed C said...

It is my opinion that anyone who cannot put a point across with out the use of obsenities shows a great lack of Intelligence and Maturity. Christian, You should maybe go back to your Momma's aprin strings and have her teach you some manners!

Anonymous said...

Whats wrong with being racist? Everyone is racist to a certain extent. If you say you are not, then you are fooling yourself.