Thursday, September 28, 2006

You hate me, want to steal from me and kill me? Fine, how may I help you?

How open borders turnAmericans into roadkill
Marcos Ramos Medina was driving his 1997 Chevrolet Lumina erratically, according to witnesses, swerving several times across the center line, causing a tractor-trailer rig to jackknife in Yakima, Wash., Aug. 4, 2005.

That was before his car plowed into the 2000 Lexus driven by Peggy Keller, 53, dean of distance education at Yakima Valley College, who was killed in the head-on crash.

When Russell T. "Todd" Sharpe, a six-year Washington State Patrol officer, testified that Medina fought against his restraints while being taken to the hospital for a blood alcohol test and refused to answer questions, the case against the Mexican national with a criminal record who had twice been deported was declared a mistrial because his constitutional right to remain silent had been violated.

It's official: the constitution is now a suicide pact.

45 comments:

Anonymous said...

Wait mexican nationals have constitutional rights??? Um..............huh. I figured the being deported twice was enough of a clue for any liberal judge jackass to get but I guess not. I'm also pretty sure the illegal is going to get deported again leaving him to kill more American citizens next time he's does the taco bell dash.

el razonador said...

Daniel - As far as I know, nobody is advocating open borders. Do you have an economically viable solution? Absent a guest worker program and increased quotas for low-skilled immigrant laborers, could you please articulate how it might work without adversely affecting the economy?

Anonymous said...

Our economy is False anyway as we are living on money borrowed from China.

Take away the Federal spending and we go puff!

We are almost to the point that we will soon have nothing left to lose.

That won't be a pretty day.

Sue K. said...

"without adversely affecting the economy?" You're kidding, right? I believe the millions and millions of illegal aliens are adversely affecting our communties, schools, health care, hospitals, roads, jails, etc.

Other countries better take notice now. Once the United States is taken over and becomes like Mexico, the illegals will be on the move again.

Anonymous said...

el raz,

If you can give proof that it would affect the economy, then that articulation would be needed. Your argument is bunk.

Rick Hickey said...

El, Dept. of Labor - 2005 - 15 Million Americans un or under employed. www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/jobs/ns06062003.cfm
USA today - 2 weeks ago - Personal incomes flat for 6 years, reason? flood of cheaper labor. One example used, Concrete Construction workers. Union in Illinois has 15,000 members out of work because they get $26/HR & Bene's. USA is happy to run story about Mexican "immigrants" doing same job for $15/hr., under the table, no bene's.

EL - 1/2 of 15 million get good job (I say 1/2 'cause other 1/2 won't work)
NOW 7.5 Million paying TAXES and at a higher rate as Taxes are related to income level.

Newsweek, last week, increase in poverty last two years, 794,000 people, ALL Hispanics (increasing the income divide and hurting LEGAL low or no educated Hispanics) ALSO 1995-2005, Number of un-insureds= Hispanics 78% of total growth.

There is much more (Howard Borjas, Harvard Economist, CIS, etc.) but I have a family life too

FRIDAY - SENATE - YES! TO BUILD A WALL AND ENFORCE OUR LAWS!

ps, El IF you are really a Hispanic, you should be on our side. If you study this you will see that Hispanics are being exploited (recent Day Labor site fiasco in Portland as 8 workers NOT paid for 2 weeks of work) and you will discover that this Illegal flood of bodies is hurting Minorities the MOST.
I am white, doesn't affect me finacially personally, YET. BUT it is affecting Americans and that includes the ones with fewest options.

Rick Hickey said...

OH and Yes many Lefty groups, people ARE advocating Open Borders. They actually put it on signs at these Protests and proudly wave it around.

Mike said...

It's official: the constitution is now a suicide pact.

I think calling the Constitution a suicide pact is placing blame on the wrong thing. NOT enforcing the Constitution and our statues is a suicide pact.

Bobkatt said...

I like this idea best, it's from the same article.
"Whether they are mostly illegal aliens or not, one thing is certain – there are more unlicensed drivers on the road than ever before. So prevalent is the trend that many police departments have cut back on sobriety checkpoints in favor of checkpoints to check the documentation of drivers."
"A WND statistical study of police reports of dozens of such checkpoints around the country show that close to 10 percent of drivers stopped are either unlicensed or have suspended licenses. Even at sobriety checkpoints, far more drivers are found to be unlicensed than intoxicated."
By the way, avoid driving in these areas-Statewide, more than one-third of California drivers are without insurance, according to the California Department of Insurance. In some low-income and minority neighborhoods, the rate is over 50 percent. In San Jose, for instance, 55 percent of all drivers on the road have no auto insurance. In some parts of Los Angeles, Imperial, San Diego and Alameda counties, the rate reaches as high as 90 percent.
More uninsured, unlicensed suicide drivers coming to an area near you driving weapons of mass destruction.

dchamil said...

Here's a topical little nursery rhyme available online at zelo.com.

I don't want to go to Mexico
No more, more, more.
There's a big fat policeman
By my door, door, door.
He grabbed me by the collar,
He made me pay a dollar,
I dont want to go to Mexico
No more, more, more.

el razonador said...

Sue - You're hysterical. No Mexicans are trying to take over the country. I saw Pat Buchanan on the Daily Show pimping his new book and he made the ludicrous prediction that in 100 years the Southwestern states would again be part of Mexico. That is nonsense. These people are moving here because the want to live here (or earn here and return with their earnings to Mexico and improve their communities), not because they want to make it like the impoverished country that they are fleeing. But that's my opinion, based on a plethora of research (I'm happy to provide citations).

Rick - no doubt there is some truth to what you are saying, in terms of your numbers. But you commit the oldest social scientific fallacy there is by equating correlation with causation. In fact you and Daniel alike are masters at identifying undocumented immigration as the source of nearly every socioeconomic dilemma faced by the country. For reasons that are beyond me, you choose to ignore the major players: corporate greed, globalization, China, India, etc.

This assumption that you make – that immigration (legal or illegal) negatively impacts the economy – HAS NO EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF IT. Off the top of my head, I can think of two major books, one in 1997, a National Research Council book by Smith and Edmonston and a recent volume (2003) by Bean and Stevens (Russell Sage Foundation). Both books investigated this very question, and neither one found this negative impact that you take for granted. Why is that, Rick?

Rick, have you actually read Borjas? Why are you citing him? Camarota at the CIS is a hack, and their “research” has countless methodological flaws. Why believe these folks over people like David Card, Douglas Massey, Alejandro Portes and over the research published by the Pew Hispanic Center (which released a new report this week that shows Hispanics to be doing quite well)? Is it because they are the ones that support your restrictionist position? How is that rational?

Though things can become quite complex in looking at this sort of phenomenon, from an economic standpoint, things are really quite simple. Since at least the 1970s, the United States’ economy has taken on an increasingly hour-glass shape: Job growth has been at both the high end (requiring advanced skills and degrees) and the low end (what sociologists and economists refer to as jobs in the secondary labor market; low skilled jobs that offer few ladders out of the bottom).

Here is where your argument breaks down. Simple math will demonstrate that this country does not have enough native-born persons with the educational profile to fill the jobs in the secondary sector. I’m not talking about construction jobs (though I find it humorously ironic that righties bemoan unions until they find it convenient to side with them in fighting undocumented immigration). I’m talking about agriculture, non-durable goods manufacturing (e.g. textiles), janitorial work, back-of-the-house restaurant services, and housekeeping (e.g., in hotels) services, and meat processing. Employers could not raise wages high-enough to entice most native-born persons into this sector of work, simply because it is dead-end work for anyone seeking the type of lifestyle that work in the primary sector provides.

Daniel always says, we have laws, we just need to enforce them. But the laws don’t work. An enforcement only bill that does not implement a guest worker plan and increase quotas for employment-based immigrant visas is foolishness. Let’s say all 12 million undocumented (60% of whom are low-skilled Mexicans) become felons, and let’s, for the sake of fantasy assume that we have the resources and capability of deporting them all. Then who does the nation’s dirty work? Do you really think that natives are going to be drawn into this type of occupation? I don’t care how high wages go, this isn’t going to happen. For one, they’re dead end jobs unless you come from a poor country. Also, jobs carry status, and increased wages at the low end, would trigger wage hikes up through the hierarchy. The increase in the price of goods and services would be exponential and would squeeze the middle and working-classes far more than does your putative deleterious impact of undocumented labor.

Here is my prediction. Restrictionist "get tough on immigration" policy will be enacted with fanfare, but quietly, well-heeled interests will lobby for a guest worker program ensuring (a) they continue to realize big profits and (b) that the economy can continue to plod along without crises related to consumer spending and confidence that would arise should the nation lose it's low-skilled workers. Who will you blame, Rick? The left, no doubt.

Kristopher said...

There is a simple solution to all of this.

Jail employers who knowingly hire illegals.

Jail hospital employees that do not report illegals.

Jail police who do not act to remove reported illegals.

Anonymous said...

El,

You clearly do not understand the econimical impact that the illegal hispanic community has imposed on US citizens.

They are so clear that everyone keeps trying to point these out to you but you choose to have blinders on.

Health care for illegal aliens is at an all time high this cost the taxpayers (those would be the people that are either US citizens or legal immigrants). There is not a community in the US that is not impacted by this as these cost are covered by the state.

Our children suffer in schools as taxpayers dollars are wasted on interpreters and classes such as ESL. Not to mention the impact it has on our children getting a decent education, this will not happen if the teacher has to slow down the learning process so she re-explain the lesson for children that are struggling to understand english.

There are plenty of US citizens that would do the work that illegals are doing however as long as illegals will will do this for less money and no insurance and the companies can get away with it our citizens will remain either unemployed or underemployed and will have to start using the welfare system (oops more tax dollars spent).

Please forgive me for not giving a rat's a-- if a mexican wants to make his community in Mexico better while he is hurting my community.

Sue K. said...

El,

I want a lot of things too but I try to obtain those in a LEGAL way. At the grocery store, I'd rather not wait in the long check-out line but I was always taught to wait my turn. When I need to see a doctor, I'd rather not wait weeks or months to get an appointment. I'd love to visit another country at will but you need a passport (except to come to the United States illegally).

The "people that want to live here and earn money so they can send it back to Mexico to help their communities", are they helping our communities in the meantime? For the most part, I think not. Are we providing them with services to which they are not entitled so they may earn money to send back to Mexican communities? Do they ever return to their Mexican communities or do they continue to work here, receive freebies and send their money home? I'd wager to say they stay here. Can you blame them?? They've got a pretty good gig going. I'm really not interested in your plethora of research. The facts speak for themselves.

el razonador said...

I'll take these criticisms point by point (though I do have a life to tend to, believe or not):

"You clearly do not understand the econimical impact that the illegal hispanic community has imposed on US citizens."

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one, as I feel strongly that it is you who lacks proper perspective. One major point of my argument with Rick is that this "economical impact that the illegal hispanic community has imposed on US citizens" is a case of a gross misunderstanding of cause and effect. Rather, the increasing economic insecurity of native-born Americans and the presence of a large low-skilled undocumented population stem from the same cause: globalization. In such a world, there are a few winners (i.e. the 1% of the wealthy in the U.S. who control an increasing proportion of the nation's wealth) and losers (i.e., the rest of us, citizens and non-citizens, legal and illegal). Why is your ire so squarely focused on a symptom of the problem (the undocumented population) rather than the cause? A while ago on this very blog, people were bashing liberals for driving toyotas asserting their patriotism by driving American-"made" brands. Nonetheless, the parts in both cars are made in Mexico. Under the current global economy, the only resulting difference of whether you buy Ford or Toyota is that in the former case, you contribute to the increased wealth of exectives in Detroit, while in the latter, the wealth of their counterparts in Tokyo is enhanced. Are those recently laid off by GM benefitting from your presumed patriotism?

"Health care for illegal aliens is at an all time high this cost the taxpayers (those would be the people that are either US citizens or legal immigrants)."

Really? If so, it's only because the number of illegal aliens is at an all-time high. But this population is far healthier than the native-born population, and uses far fewer state health resources. I can provide evidence of this if you wish.

"There is not a community in the US that is not impacted by this as these cost are covered by the state."

All the more reason to organize these workers under a guest-worker program, thus shifting the onus from the state, to the employer. Remember, said guest-worker program requires the employers to seek native-born employees first. It's unclear to my why it is so staunchly opposed.

"Our children suffer in schools as taxpayers dollars are wasted on interpreters and classes such as ESL. Not to mention the impact it has on our children getting a decent education, this will not happen if the teacher has to slow down the learning process so she re-explain the lesson for children that are struggling to understand english."

Admittedly, I'm not as knowledgable about the education dynamics, so I cannot comment crtically on this. I do think public education is a mess, but would need substantial evidence showing that immigration is the cause. I do know that immigrant children and the children of immigrants consistently out-perform native-born kids on education metrics.

"There are plenty of US citizens that would do the work that illegals are doing however as long as illegals will will do this for less money and no insurance and the companies can get away with it.."

I completely disagree with this. The types of jobs I pointed to are not upwardly mobile. As I've pointed out in other posts, the US is a credential society. The surest way to attain an economically secure life is through educational attainment and receiving a job in the primary sector. The labor market does not work in the simplistic way you describe. Take a hotel for instance. If you increase wages enough so that a native-born individual could be enticed away from the educational and training pursuits necessary for a primary sector job to take a job making beds and cleaning rooms, this is not the end of it. Those who work in higher positions would demand a relative increase in their wages. The result would be an exponential increase in costs that would shatter our consumption-driven economy. It's not economically tenable. But the short of it is this. If you actually think that the native-born workforce will take these jobs in sufficient number, I question your sanity.


"...our citizens will remain either unemployed or underemployed and will have to start using the welfare system (oops more tax dollars spent)."

What welfare system?

Sue -- You really need to read Douglas Massey's book "Beyond Smoke and Mirrors". This will answer all of your questions much more articulately than I can. But, since you don't care for research, I'll give you the gist of the book. First, NAFTA has been bad for both countries, as it has created forces that move goods and services across "open borders" (i.e. without tariffs). The relationship between the U.S. and Mexico is so unequal that the only economically viable solution for Mexico is to move its most productive asset, its labor, in the same fashion that businesses in the U.S. move goods in services across the border to realize higher profits. Logically, why should one expect American capital to flow without restriction across the border without a simultaneous flow of Mexican labor capital in the opposite direction? NAFTA has increased migration pressures. Second, at the same time that NAFTA has put labor migration into hyper-speed, the U.S. has poured billions into border enforcement. The result is not decreased illegal immigration, but rather a longer duration of trips by illegals and a greater likelihood of permanent settlement. With greater difficulty and cost of crossing the border (demand and prices for Coyotes is at an all-time high) illegals make the calculated decision to settle permanently and bring their family. What used to be a circulatory and temporary flow has turned into a more permanent migration flow, consisting of more women and children, as border enforcement has been increased.

"I'm really not interested in your plethora of research. The facts speak for themselves."

That's hilarious. Made my day.

Scottiebill said...

SueK: Elrazonadors remarks that are consistently very pro-illegal-alien makes me wonder about his status here in the U.S. - i.e. legal or illegal? Or maybe he is aiding and abetting the illegals in some way that could be positively affecting his financial status. One has to wonder.

Max said...

No Mexicans are trying to take over the country.

El Raz, your statement is false. MECHA and LA RAZA have clearly stated their intention to do exactly that. Repeatedly.

Anonymous said...

El,

Answer one question for me. How is illegal Mexican's earning money in the US, not paying taxes, and sending the money to help their communities in Mexico helping the US economy? You questioned my sanity?

And I'm thrilled that the Mexican community is so healthy however let me point this out to you an average trip to the emergency room is $500 to $1,000 this so called wonder worker get's hurt on the job and have to go to the emergency room who is going to pay their hospital visit you? It falls back on US citizens shoulders. We won't even discuss the fact that the babies that are being borned to illegal aliens in this county are costing us millions and millions of dollars every year (look it up it's a fact).

Again you questioned my sanity? Seems to me that not only is your status in this country questionable your sanity is as well.

Stop reading the liberal books and start looking at the facts.

Bryan Saxton said...

This is classic. As in real life, when people are presented with facts and logical arguments that they cannot counter, they ignore those arguments and attack something else. (BTW, if anyone cares, questioning el razonador's status is an example of a red herring argument.)

I would like to see someone attempt to contradict el razonador.

el razonador said...

"Answer one question for me. How is illegal Mexican's earning money in the US, not paying taxes, and sending the money to help their communities in Mexico helping the US economy? "

First of all, we should hope that Mexican-born laborers are investing in their communities, for an increased standard of living there will eventually reduce migration pressures. As for not paying taxes, some undocumented do. According to Massey's book (sorry to keep going to research, but I like looking at the facts), Table 4.2, page 69 shows that 64% of migrants (documented and undocumented) in his sample payed federal taxes. A guest-worker program would ensure that the state receives 100% of workers' taxes due.

I'd also like to call into serious question this assumption that illegal workers are a burden on the welfare system. How is this possible? We have little welfare to speak of in this country. Most of what exists is in the form of Medicare. Sorry to be so annoying with factual evidence, but Table 6.2 page 135, reports that among post-IRCA undocumented immigrants, 6.2% had children in school, 2.6% recieved unemployment, 2.9% received food stamps, and 4.0% received welfare. Are you going to seriously argue that in the grand scheme of federal and state expenditures and relative to the costs of building and policing a 2,000 mile fence as well as felonizing and deporting 12 million persons, these figures presented here amount to anything more than a very small drop in a very large bucket?

"And I'm thrilled that the Mexican community is so healthy however let me point this out to you an average trip to the emergency room is $500 to $1,000 this so called wonder worker get's hurt on the job and have to go to the emergency room who is going to pay their hospital visit you? It falls back on US citizens shoulders."

The use of the emergency room for routine health care is more common among poor native-born people than it is for immigrants. In fact, according to the National Health Interview Survey, natives are twice as likely to do so, compared to immigrants. Further, under the auspices of a guest-worker program, the cost of the injury scenario you describe would fall on the employer, not taxpayers.

"Seems to me that not only is your status in this country questionable your sanity is as well."

The only reason my status in the country is in question is because Scottiebill -- presumably because I have a spanish log-in name and I guess because he has nothing constructive to offer to the discussion -- has made this assertion. Not that it deserves the dignity of a response, or has anything whatsoever to do with whether or not my argument is sound, I was born and bred right here in the good 'ol US of A.

"Stop reading the liberal books and start looking at the facts."

Why are rigorously researched books "liberal" books? If adopting an opinion based on carefully collected and analyzed empirical evidence is liberal thing, then I guess I'm guilty (though, as I noted above, one of the books I've cited widely here, as it is extremely relevant to the conversation, appears on OFIR's recommended reading list, go figure).

Chris Pieschel said...

"First of all, we should hope that Mexican-born laborers are investing in their communities, for an increased standard of living there will eventually reduce migration pressures. As for not paying taxes, some undocumented do. According to Massey's book (sorry to keep going to research, but I like looking at the facts), Table 4.2, page 69 shows that 64% of migrants (documented and undocumented) in his sample payed federal taxes. "

So your "solution" is based on mexican immigrants earning money in our economy and not putting it back by spending it here, and sending it out of the country instead? How does this benefit the U.S. economy?

And for the tax situation, how many of the legal versus the illegal aliens pay taxes? Is it 95% to 25% so the legal workers skew the numbers of the illegal workers? How do you even obtain information such as this? Does someone call up people, like a pollster, and ask "Are you illegal? Do you pay your taxes?" Who in their right mind would admit to a stranger on the phone that they are illegal and not paying taxes? Are they getting the information from employers who knowingly employ illegal aliens and also happen to know that these workers pay no taxes???

el razonador said...

"So your "solution" is based on mexican immigrants earning money in our economy and not putting it back by spending it here, and sending it out of the country instead? How does this benefit the U.S. economy?"

Well, it is a development strategy. I'm not saying I agree with it, but then again, I don't like NAFTA and I don't see us getting out of it any time soon. So, it seems like the better alternative is to at least have the workers that we need here (and this is the crucial part of the debate that never gets discussed in the media: precisely how many are needed and at what point the restriction of the labor market does more harm than good) above boards so that we can tax their wages. Also, from the Mexican perspective, one could turn your question around, in which case it would go like this: "So, under the auspices of NAFTA the Americans get to own Mexican companies, use cheap Mexican labor to produce their goods, and then transport it and their profits back to the U.S. tariff-free without putting the money back into the Mexican economy?"

"And for the tax situation, how many of the legal versus the illegal aliens pay taxes? Is it 95% to 25% so the legal workers skew the numbers of the illegal workers? How do you even obtain information such as this? Does someone call up people, like a pollster, and ask "Are you illegal? Do you pay your taxes?" Who in their right mind would admit to a stranger on the phone that they are illegal and not paying taxes? Are they getting the information from employers who knowingly employ illegal aliens and also happen to know that these workers pay no taxes???"

Details of the study are at http://mmp.opr.princeton.edu/

Chris Pieschel said...

"Also, from the Mexican perspective, one could turn your question around, in which case it would go like this: "So, under the auspices of NAFTA the Americans get to own Mexican companies, use cheap Mexican labor to produce their goods, and then transport it and their profits back to the U.S. tariff-free without putting the money back into the Mexican economy?"

The only problem with that is that by and large, mexican citizens are not sending their earnings to the United States. So while "Americans own the company" and get a large share of the profits, the workers in Mexico are still getting paid and spending that money (little as it may be) in their own country, thus contributing to the economy that they are a part of.

Anonymous said...

Okay everyone now that we have had this debate all in all what this boils down to is simple:

Crossing the US border without documentation (i.e. sneaking into the country) is illegal and you do not reward criminals by giving them guest worker status. I cannot go without paying my taxes and reporting my income I would go to jail and I will be damned if someone who is not from this country gets a break because his/her government cannot figure out life!!!!!!

Also these so called "guest workers" are stealing people's SSN again a crime in this country which is where they think that they are paying taxes I'm thrilled for them however the individual's SSN that was stolen isn't quite as thrilled.

And for the record any illegal alien that seeks medical care and does not pay for it is stealing (oh what a surprise another crime committed).

I could care less about all these statistics El wants to throw out there a crime is a crime and should be punished.

Want to live in this country do it legally or get the hell out.

Have a great day everyone:)

el razonador said...

Ugh.

"The only problem with that is that by and large, mexican citizens are not sending their earnings to the United States. So while "Americans own the company" and get a large share of the profits, the workers in Mexico are still getting paid and spending that money (little as it may be) in their own country, thus contributing to the economy that they are a part of."

Well, obviously not enough. Hence, the continued migration pressures. In the 12 years since NAFTA was signed, is there any doubt about where the overwhelming amount of money is flowing? Despite the large remittance revenue Mexico receives, I have a hint for you: it's in a northward direction.

anon - I've never contended that illegal immigration is a good thing. But your desire to exact punishment on all 12 million undocumented in the country does not solve the problem, which is, simply, that federal immigration quotas are out of sorts with the realities of a NAFTA-era Mexican-US economy. The deportation of all illegal workers does nothing to address the fact - one that you and others apparently do not want to face up to - that the U.S. does not, as of now have the sufficient native-born or legal immigrant workforce to get the nation's dirtiest and least desireable, yet crucial work (agriculture, meat-packing and so on) done. That's about as simply as I can state it. A restriction/enforcement only policy does nothing to address this fact. That's about as simply as I can put it.

"I could care less about all these statistics"

This is obvious and apparently a setntiment shared by your friends, in which case, I see no point in continuing the discussion, and will gladly sign-off.

Anonymous said...

El,

Sorry that you don't want to continue the discussion however I am not surprise. The 12 million illegal aliens in this country should be punished but that is impossible. However if we do not do something and show we are serious I tend to agree with Sue that US will be Mexico.

If you walk into any unemployment agency you will see plenty of Americans ready and willing to do these so called "dirty jobs that Americans won't do" and be happy with the chance of making a living so please stop assuming that we would not.

As an American I am fed up with certain things of which some are petty and others are very serious. I get angry everytime I have to dial 1 for English (this would be the pettiness in me), I get angry when my childrens education has suffered because over half the class needs additional instructions in spanish, I get angry that while I pay for my health care illegal aliens will obtain it for free, I get angry when I pay my taxes and illegal aliens do not pay taxes.

I could go on all day however one thing that makes me more angry than anything else is when an illegal alien kills, steals, or rapes someone in this country and it could have all been prevented by closing the borders.

I find it hard to believe that any American thinks that having all of these illegal aliens is a good thing but I guess I am naive.

Bryan Saxton said...

Anon-

I think you are missing el razonador's point. Yes, there are HUGE problems with immigration, but kicking everyone out is not the solution, simply because our work force is not large enough. However, we should not let the situation continue as it is. Rick Hickey is part of a group called "Oregonians for Immigration Reform." While I do not agree with the specific arguments presented by this group, I agree with the premise. Oregon does need immigration reform. In fact, the whole United States needs immigration reform. We need a strong guest worker program, where the guest workers pay for their health care and benefits, just as we citizens do.

Unfortunately, anon, it seems as if most of your complaints are rooted in racism and extreme nationalism (the source of radical groups such as NAZI).

Tim said...

I was just wondering how long it would take some pinhead to throw out "nazi."

I have a message for the illegal aliens - all 20 million of them and their anchor babies - get the fuck out! This is my country, not yours.

To the illegal alien sympathizers - no one is preventing you from spending your cash to help these people. If you are so concerned, why not invite a few into your home to live off you? Pay their food, education, transportation and medical expenses. Hell, if you really cared you'd give them your job. But no, you want me to pay their expenses. You want some hardworking blue collar American guy or gal to give up their job.

To the "Guest Worker Program" chorus - it's time you and your cronies in construction, agriculture and manufacturing paid your freight by hiring Americans at honest wages and benefits. I'm tired of subsidizing your businesses through the use of my tax dollars to support your illegal workforces. If I had my way any employer who hires an illegal would be locked up in Federal prison. So what if I have to pay more at retail for some goods and services? I’m paying many times that cost already.

And finally - YES WE CAN AND SHOULD KICK OUT ALL 20 MILLION.

Sue K. said...

Tim,

Give me a "high five"!!!

Anonymous said...

But this population is far healthier than the native-born population, and uses far fewer state health resources. I can provide evidence of this if you wish.

OK...go ahead.

Anonymous said...

Nazis...you mean La Raza? The Mexican Nazis?

hypocrite.

Bryan Saxton said...

How Nazi?

"The jews aren't native... get them out!"

Sound familiar?

Bryan Saxton said...

Tim-

You're fairly conservative. Aren't you supposed to be advocating the cause o this problem (NAFTA) because it's helping our economy and big business? Oh yeah, and Tim, this isn't your country anymore than it's the native American's country, and they don't get to make the rules. Why should you?

To Anon, no, not la raza. Screw them. I'm talking pragmatism, not extremism.

Chris Pieschel said...

"To the "Guest Worker Program" chorus - it's time you and your cronies in construction, agriculture and manufacturing paid your freight by hiring Americans at honest wages and benefits. I'm tired of subsidizing your businesses through the use of my tax dollars to support your illegal workforces. If I had my way any employer who hires an illegal would be locked up in Federal prison. So what if I have to pay more at retail for some goods and services? I’m paying many times that cost already.

And finally - YES WE CAN AND SHOULD KICK OUT ALL 20 MILLION."

I work in manufacturing, am an American citizen, and I make a very good wage with good benefits. I hope I am not the minority in my profession. We (to my knowledge) employ NO illegal aliens. I agree that people who hire illegal aliens should be penalized, as they are the major source of the problem.

I used to be in a position to hire (I managed a McDonald's restaurant) and I REFUSED to hire anyone who had suspect ID and/or SSN's. Call it discrimination if you want. I don't care. If I were a customer at McDonald's (which I have become now) I would want to see an English-speaking person at the counter who is supposed to be representing an "All-American" company. What the hell happened in the last 10 years where now the majority of the workforce in that occupation is now hispanic? You can't even order a cheeseburger anymore without 3 years of high-school spanish classes!

Bruce said...

I would be willing to bet that this Keller woman who worked as President of distance education for Yakima College had a lot to do with helping illegal aliens get a free education or at least in state tuition for it. If she rose to the level of president in academia circles she definately was a dyed in the wool liberal (aiding and abbetting criminal invaders). The ironic fact that this probable,PC infatuated, liberal left winger was killed by the very kind of people she probably welcomed into the country with open arms...is not lost on me. In fact, I have no pity for this woman at all. What goes around, comes around eventually. Maybe this tragedy will change a couple of minds.....but i doubt it!!!

The Meek said...

El

You want a guest worker program? How about we conduct a scientific experiment.

First we beef up and enforce the labor laws and limit government assistance to three meals and a greyhound ride home.

We wait 10 years to see what happens to our economy.

We then assess how much extra things like shrubbery, vegetables, beef, construction, hotel rooms, restaraunt meals, landscaping, and other low skilled services cost us compared to how much we save on reduced medical care costs, reduced school levy taxes, reduced criminal justice costs, and reduced translation and multiculturalism training costs.

We might even find a way to assess how our communities, especially our rural ones, have benefited by the higher wages paid to legal blue collar and service workers, whether of hispanic, black, or white ancestery.

What do you think?



Also, El, I would have been perfectly happy in my dead-end construction job of over 20 years. But, the job paid $15.00 in the 1980s, and still paid $15.00 4 years ago. Compare construction wages over the last 20 years to the wages of jobs that illegals lack credentials to do, like nurse, school teacher, attorney, longshoreman.

Have any of your studies looked at any of this?

What do you think a blue collar community like if the 5 or 10% of the population that is illegal had to go home to find work, and the remaining, legal workers were soon making 50-75% more than they were? Before you pounce, remember to figure out how much of the costs of a new house, loaf of bread, or stalk of celery is in the labor. It might just be worth it to fork over another 10% on a new home if I was getting 50% more an hour to help build it.

Rick Hickey said...

Pres. Jim Ludwick started OFIR over 6 years ago, naming it Oregonians For Immigration Reform.
The name meant to him, to START enforcing immigration laws (that 1st amnesty in 1986 was supposed to be a guarentee that laws would be enforced) and reduce Legal immigration to an enviromentally and economically sustainable level, about 250,000 p/Yr. (the most ever in our history during the migration of the early 1900's).
He understood as I do that 1.2 Million Legally and another 1-3 Million (Time mag.,CIS, U.S. Border Patrol say they may catch 1 out of 3 and catch 1 Million/yr. avg.)is UNSUSTAINABLE and a huge burden on our economy and enviroment.

It is NOT the Federal Gov't job to provide cheap labor in an unlimited supply or to provide more "needy" people that use social services.

Immigrants have always been required to prove that they would learn OUR laws/culture/history and Language and NOT be a burden before being granted the HONOR of becoming an American.

That is still the law and for good reason, BUT it is NOT being enforced. 3 million excused in 1986 and now 4 times as many snuck in since is proof.

Therefore the Chaos, confusion and bitter feelings are everywhere.

Tonight our Senate finally listened to Americans and decided to start to secure our Border.

As I write this I just came back from the Salem Hospital, my wife is having an emergency appendectomy operation.
So many people speaking Spanish and every sign in Spanish and the long wait (while my strong wife is crying in pain) and resulting confusion is a HUGE PAINFUL BURDEN that should NOT happen in what is supposed to be a modern, lawful and organized society.

You people that make excuses for Illegal Aliens and the agenda of a corrupt iresponsible Nation make me SICK!
MOVE to Mexico and help them, they and WE would all be better for it.
I'll pay for your one-way ticket. (After I pay the jacked up Hospital Bill because of all the non-paying Aliens)
Rick Hickey V.P. - OFIR
Assistant fundraiser OFIR-PAC

Bruce said...

I hope she is allright, Rick! I also hope they still have doctors up there that speak English because i know you don't speak Spanish AND YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO. THIS COUNTRY RUNS ON ENGLISH, PEOPLE!!!! Keep that in mind when you vote!!!!

Bruce said...

TIM...10,000 "HIGH FIVES" go out to you. That's the way to speak up! To HELL with El Raza-face!!!

Bruce said...

RICK....Gimme a call at the shop today, if you get the chance...haven't talked to you in a while.

Anonymous said...

Do you know that hospitals in most parts of the world have signs in english? Maybe if you traveled a little outside of your bubble, you'd realise that there's not more HONOR in being an American than there is in being German, Mexican, Rumanian, or Canadian.

Hickey, Saxton, Sherwood...Something about these lastnames doesn't sound like Native-american, and makes me wonder exactly how it is that some of you come to the conclusion that it is YOUR country and nobody else's, and now is the moment to not let anybody else come, but before it was ok.

I love this blog, because it is a great way to maintain awarness of what dangers are present in the world. And the way people here reject reason, intelligence and knowledge as that shown by el razonador, is one of the most lucid examples of such dangers.

I'm in Berlin right now, so it is very present to me what it means to build walls. Tomorrow, all the country will be celebrating the union of the once fractured Germany, and I hope you didn't forget about this...Oh wait, y'all probably think that communists should be seeked and destroyed too, right?

SG

Bruce said...

ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Wherever we can find them....and far left liberals like you also!!!!

bjdorr said...

What about the rights of the crash victim Peggy Keller? That's right, illegal immigrants come to the United States to commit crimes and make our lives miserable. It certainly did for Peggy Keller and her family.

Anonymous said...

I fail to see how constructing my opinions with reasoning and proper information, other than fanatic ideas fueled only by racism and xenofobia, makes my a far left liberal. But it was still a good comeback, Bruce...

What happened to Peggy Keller is a tragedy, and her rights are the same as the rights of any other american citizen, so I don't really understand your question, bjdorr. I hope that you're not trying to claim that only illegal immigrants run over people. And if you did read the article the post is about, you'd see that the information is unbelievably biased, and other than the title ("open borders"? for nobody in the world there is a country that is harder go to than the USA...America has the most closed borders in the world), it includes no evidence that illegal aliens cause more deaths than american-born citizens, or even that they are more likely to. It also includes no statement that implies that lack of insurance is a problem that particularly concerns illegal immigrants, other than a confuse and unclear "there is an increasing awareness among law enforcement officials – and victims of traffic accidents – that illegal aliens are playing a disproportionate role in the road mayhem." The rest of it is a lot of "most", "many", and other opinions the "reporter" (doesn't say who he is, by the way) decided to include, seemingly with unethical purposes. Statistics are manipulated to seem to say things that they just don't say. I find it sad that poor Peggy Keller's death is being used by people with an agenda. Maybe there are more important reasons to why your life is miserable, other than people crossing a line somewhere that separates the two countries.

SG

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