Thursday, March 22, 2007

If by "objectively false" you mean "literally true"

Another product of our public schools made (yet another) dumb comment about how the fact that illegal aliens come here to commit crimes is "objectively false." Sigh.

Crime #1
EWI (entry without inspection) is a violation of federal law212(a) (6) (A) (I) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1996 (the INA), "Entry Without Inspection."

Crime #2
Not eligible to work in the United StatesImmigration Reform Act of 1986 (Public Law 99-603)

Or Crime #2
Not eligible for public assistanceTITLE 8 > CHAPTER 14 > SUBCHAPTER I > § 1611

Crime #3
Form I-9“I attest, under penalty of perjury, that I am [not an illegal alien]
I am aware that federal law provides for imprisonment and/or fines for false statements or use of false documents in connection with the completion of this form.

Crime #4
Social Security # (Form I-9, W-4, etc) Identity theft, forgery, perjury
Whose SSN are they using on various forms? The government does offer an ITIN (number exclusively for illegal aliens) but how many criminals approach our government to ask for it?

And those are the ones who aren't selling drugs and raping girls. For more on that see this delightful list. (procured by me from the Oregon DOC, see blog post)


a curious thinker said...

Subtle "legal" formalities, Daniel. These are hardly crimes against humanity, as opposed to, say, an illegal war that slaughters thousands of innocents (which includs US Troops).

a curious thinker said...

Please forgive the misspelling of "includes."

Daniel said...

I love how "legal" is in quote marks as if that somehow mitigates breaking the law.

Murder is worse than stealing but that doesn't mean that I can shoplift.

bjdorr said...

Ooh, look at all these crimes... and look at the lives they miserable by stealing others identities, raping the women and children, assault, murder, sodomy, kidnapping, etc...

Holy shit, Daniel! That list doesn't end.

a curious thinker said...

The only intention I had behind putting "legal" in quotes was to hopefully encourage you to think critically about the notion of legality, not for you to use it as some red herring in another one of your arguments desperate for logic.

bjdorr said...

Thanks, Daniel, for digging up that list.

Anonymous said...

Wow! Daniel, you impress me. Such research. Such diligent attention to the letter of the law. Curious that you don't also apply it to the Bush administration. The casualties for which Saddam Hussein was HANGED number fewer than the dead Bush is responsible for. Odd that when hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians die in Iraq, you ignore it, laugh it off, or call for more. You can kid yourself all you like, but it's obvious that it's not the lawbreaking that really bothers you.

Anonymous said...

Yea but, pay the INS $2,000. and they are suddenly legal.

reality check said...

Daniel, a favor? Get a broom and drive to Lincoln City. Sweep the ocean back out 300 yards from Roads End to D River. Let us know when you finish so we can all come out and look. Because that's how successful you will be in your campaign against immigrant workers.

Enjoy your life. Good luck!

a curious thinker said...

"Murder is worse than stealing but that doesn't mean that I can shoplift."

It's amusing that you would make this claim, given that you label yourself as a Christian in that the very philosophy you adhere to claims that no sin is worse than any other sin. Are you ignorant, Daniel, or did you say that merely to show you are not above hypocrisy?

Do you not see these laws regarding immigration as anything other than just? Can you convey an argument that suggests that these laws are "moral" other than "we must follow the law?"

Anonymous said...

Anti-immigration laws are archaic, reactionary, undemocratic and unjust. They should be repealed. Ultimately, they will be.

Anonymous said...

... and hopefully sooner than later!

R Huse said...

Oh my God the left has finally come up with a solution! This is fantastic. Ok, follow me here:

a) Basically illegal immigration is against the law, but hey, that aint no big deal because Iraqis are killing each other and that worse and its all Bush's fault.

that somehow leads to

b) Well, then breaking immigration law isn't really that big a deal because its not a crime against humanity.

it then therefore follows that

c) Lets forget about that pesky Supreme court 14th amendment decision that makes children of illegals US citizens.

Got it? If violating immigration law is no big deal, then therefore it is certainly no big deal to violate a Supreme court decision. Case closed, you're outta here.

Imagine the freeedom of this logic. You can go ahead and violate any law you want just so long as you have decided a president is responsible for people killing each other in another country. Hey, what kind of stereo do you guys have? Im coming over to get it. Hey, and gimme all your money too, and that TV as well, Im entitled because Bush is president and I don't agree with the war. Pure F-ing genius! Im going to go out and do anything I damn well please because I HATE BUSH!

Anonymous said...

So it's okay to have hated Clinton, and to carry on the tradition by hating Hilary, but it's not okay to hate Bush? 'xplain that one to me.

a critical thinker said...

R Huse-

Friedrich Nietzsche once argued that three skills should be taught in school, one of them being the skill of inference. Perhaps the public school system failed you, because you have obviously not mastered this skill. Or maybe I am incorrect, and you are merely making both a straw man argument and slippery slope argument for me.

My arguments are meant to question the morality of immigration laws. I'm not advocating anarchy, but I am advocating critical thinking as well as the exposure of hypocrisy. It is true I am advocating radical change of the laws in the United States, but my message is for the potential future legislatures (and current ones, if they will listen to me), and my intention is not for people to arbitrarily take arms and overthrow the current system, but to hopefully improve upon the next one. And yes, I know improvement is relative.

Also, your example in point C is irrelevant, poorly written, and otherwise weak.

kelly said...

If I can't just jump into this and throw out a general question for Daniel and his gang: Obviously, you guys are motivated by fear -- fear of American culture being sacrificed, ruined, tainted, compromised, whatever word you think is appropriate. My question to you is this: What is it about American culture that you particularly value? Could you identify some of what you see as the best aspects of American culture?

Anonymous said...

DANIEL: It's past time to give these idiots a fair response..."IT'S A MENTAL DIEASE"

To those who are so blind an stupid...suck on this:

5. SELF-DEFENSE of the community must rely on the combined strength of the people. The front line defense will come from the barrios, the campos, the pueblos, and the ranchitos. Their involvement as protectors of their people will be given respect and dignity. They in turn offer their responsibility and their lives for their people. Those who place themselves in the front ranks for their people do so out of love and carnalismo. Those institutions which are fattened by our brothers to provide employment and political pork barrels for the gringo will do so only as acts of liberation and for La Causa. For the very young there will no longer be acts of juvenile delinquency, but revolutionary acts.

The above is just a portion
"libber breaths", an it is not, an does not mention your continued good health.

Anonymous said...

El Plan de Aztlán is the plan of liberation!

Back to UO MEChA homepage

Daniel: Don't we pay tax's to support the U of O????

bjdorr said...

Here's the breakdown of countries of that list of ICE hold within the Oregon Department of Corrections (list as of 8 May 2006, thanks Daniel):

AUSTRALIA : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
BOSNIA : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
CAMBODIA/KHM : 4 on ICE hold. 0.44%
CANADA : 10 on ICE hold. 1.10%
CHINA : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
CUBA : 11 on ICE hold. 1.21%
ECUADOR : 2 on ICE hold. 0.22%
EL SALVADOR : 7 on ICE hold. 0.77%
ENGLAND : 2 on ICE hold. 0.22%
ESTONIA : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
ETHIOPIA : 2 on ICE hold. 0.22%
FD ST MICRON : 2 on ICE hold. 0.22%
FIJI : 3 on ICE hold. 0.33%
GERMANY : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
GUATEMALA : 20 on ICE hold. 2.20%
HONDURAS : 6 on ICE hold. 0.66%
INDIA : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
IRAN : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
IRELAND : 2 on ICE hold. 0.22%
JAMAICA : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
JAPAN : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
KOREA : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
KYRGYZSTAN : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
LAOS : 11 on ICE hold. 1.21%
LIBERIA : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
MEXICO : 725 on ICE hold. 79.76%
MOLDOVA : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
MOROCCO : 2 on ICE hold. 0.22%
NICARAGUA : 4 on ICE hold. 0.44%
NIGERIA : 2 on ICE hold. 0.22%
NRTH IRELAND : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
PAKISTAN : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
PANAMA : 3 on ICE hold. 0.33%
PERU : 2 on ICE hold. 0.22%
PHILIPPINES : 3 on ICE hold. 0.33%
ROMANIA : 5 on ICE hold. 0.55%
RUSSIA : 6 on ICE hold. 0.66%
RUSSIA/SOVIE : 3 on ICE hold. 0.33%
RUSSIAN FEDR : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
S R VIETNAM : 4 on ICE hold. 0.44%
SOUTH AFRICA : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
SOUTH KOREA : 2 on ICE hold. 0.22%
TAIWAN : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
TAJIKISTAN : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
THAILAND : 2 on ICE hold. 0.22%
TURKEY : 1 on ICE hold. 0.11%
UKRAINE : 3 on ICE hold. 0.33%
UNITD STATES : 3 on ICE hold. 0.33%
UNKNOWN : 15 on ICE hold. 1.65%
VIETNAM : 21 on ICE hold. 2.31%
YUGOSLAVIA : 2 on ICE hold. 0.22%
Grand TOTAL : 909 on ICE hold. 100.00%

Let the numbers speak for themselves. Note: There are a few United States-born inmates on ICE hold at the moment (I don't know how that is).

Here's the breakdown of the types of crimes from the Mexico-born inmates. I chose Mexico because it has the greatest percentage of the ICE detains.

ASSA I : 21
ASSA II : 43
BURG I : 24
DRIV S/R N : 2
FORG I : 1
KID I : 14
KID I AT : 1
KID II : 11
MANS I : 22
MANS II : 14
RAPE I : 60
RAPE I AT : 14
RAPE II : 25
ROBB I : 18
ROBB II : 17
SEX AB I : 1
SEX PEN I : 11
SEXAB1 N : 82
SEXAB2 N : 6
SODO I : 25
SX/P I AT : 3
SX/P II AT : 2

Anonymous said...

BJ Dorr-

I think you can see why those statistics are completely irrelevant.

bjdorr said...

It's not irrelevant. These are the numbers from the Oregon Department of Corrections (ODOC).

It points out two things:

1. Possible illegal aliens may be from other coutries other than Mexico. Mexico may be hit with a black eye for making up 79.26% of the ICE detains held by the ODOC. The second largest group is only 2.31%: Vietnam!

2. Looking at the list of offenses by the ODOC, Mexico alone with with crimes commited by its possible illegals that illegal aliens do come here to commit crimes and make lives miserable.

R Huse said...

A curious/critical thinker - I always love it when people make the "oh gee you took the wrong inference" argument when they have said something really silly.

Look - Sorry - The obvious inference from your argument is that it is ok to violate a law provided you think that the law is immoral and that the president is doing something you disagree with. There is simply no other way to take what you said. Your assumptions of my education level and Nietzsche quoting to promote your own don't really alter this.

My example in C is quite relevant, as it is the logical extension of your argument. Laws are meaningless when any individual decides which laws they shall obey. The fact that C is well written is obvious from the fact that you took the time to address it but yet could not counter it.

The simple fact is you got called on an argument you purport to be an attempt to promote critical thinking. You then stooped to personal attack when that thinking did not agree with yours. I would suggest that you need to critically re-think whether you are the best ambassador for critical thinking.

To end on a high note; you were right on one thing. Public schools were a failure where I grew up. This is why I went to private school in NYC and Boston. I have never attended a public institution.


Anonymous said...

Interesting list, thanks for posting it Daniel. I was wondering if you could also post a list of all the names of caucasian men and women who are currently lodged in Oregon's county jails, and what the charge is. It would be good to see the context.

bjdorr said...

What?! Read this story: "Illegal Immigrants Required 6 Arrests to Warrant Federal Prosecution in Texas, Memo Says."

Big problems in illegal immigration enforcements and prosecution--Department of Homeland Security and ALBERTO GONZALES!. Not that we didn't know that already.

bjdorr said...

Anon 8:46, the list identifies the nationality or birth place of the possible illegal aliens on ICE detain. Race isn't the issue and the race isn't identified on the list.

Varoius counties have different methods of obtaining the list online, either file download, weekly link, or search entry. The time consumption to compile that list is exhausting. Most counties do not list the inmate's race. However, like Multnomah County's early releases (they have zero right now), you can browse the photos.

Context said...

Daniel, I thought I would expand on the list of four laws you list that immigrants break when they come here legally.

Since taking office in 2001, President Bush has issued signing statements for many laws, declaring that he (and only he) has the power to ignore the laws when they conflict with his legal interpretation of the Constitution. Here are 10 examples of the laws Bush says he can break. This was reported in the April 30 Boston Globe.

March 9: Justice Department officials must give reports to Congress by certain dates on how the FBI is using the USA Patriot Act to search homes and secretly seize papers.

Dec. 30, 2005: US interrogators cannot torture prisoners or otherwise subject them to cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment.

Dec. 30: When requested, scientific information ''prepared by government researchers and scientists shall be transmitted [to Congress] uncensored and without delay."

Aug. 8: The Department of Energy, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and its contractors may not fire or otherwise punish an employee whistle-blower who tells Congress about possible wrongdoing.

Dec. 23, 2004: Forbids US troops in Colombia from participating in any combat against rebels, except in cases of self-defense. Caps the number of US troops allowed in Colombia at 800.

Dec. 17: The new national intelligence director shall recruit and train women and minorities to be spies, analysts, and translators in order to ensure diversity in the intelligence community.

Oct. 29: Defense Department personnel are prohibited from interfering with the ability of military lawyers to give independent legal advice to their commanders.

Aug. 5: The military cannot add to its files any illegally gathered intelligence, including information obtained about Americans in violation of the Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches.

Nov. 6, 2003: US officials in Iraq cannot prevent an inspector general for the Coalition Provisional Authority from carrying out any investigation. The inspector general must tell Congress if officials refuse to cooperate with his inquiries.

Nov. 5, 2002: Creates an Institute of Education Sciences whose director may conduct and publish research ''without the approval of the secretary [of education] or any other office of the department."

I was going to include more, but there are 740 of them, and I’m not sure how much bandwidth you have.

R Huse said...

Presidents often issue signing statements when they feel there is a separation of powers issue.

Considering that Bush is hardly unique in issuing signing statements, what's the relevance?

Anonymous said...

He is unique ... he's issued VASTLY more of these "I can break the law if I want to" statements than any other president in history. And if you actually have to ask what the relevance is ...

Anonymous said...

sorry but the caucasians breaking the law are citizens, those 700 mexicans aren't, fool. Therefore, they shouldn't be committing one crime, since they aren't supposed to be here. Unless you are comfortable having 40+ more murders committed by Mexicans on our people. Or how about the 7 caught in astoria yesterday, a drug ring. I guess they are farming drugs now...Don't you love importing crime!!!!!And yes, Bush is an idiot as well. I voted for him, now would vote to impeach him. I admit I was wrong to vote for him, at least am I intellectually honest.

bjdorr said...

Anon 9:54, not all caucasians are U.S. citizens. More than likely there might be a handful of caucasians from several of those countries that I listed above.

Scottiebill said...

Daniel: About half of the first post are specious arguments agisnt you and your stand against the illegal aliens. These guys do not seem to grasp the idea that coming into the U.S. illegally (or "undocumented", if you will) is a crime under the Federal immigrations statutes.

These guys probably would look at a bank robbery as an "undocumented withdrawal" and say it was OK because it was not quite as serious as murder.

Anon 846 said...

Anon 9:54, thanks for your comment. I appreciate it ... my point was to illustrate that if Daniel is truly concerned about lawbreakers, he would be concerned about ALL lawbreakers. You are certainly entitled to disagree with the way I tried to make my point, or even to disagree with my point, but most of all, I thank you and salute you for your comment about Bush. Unlike Daniel, you are indeed being intellectually honest. I wish more Republicans were like you (although a lot are already, frankly.)

R Huse said...

Huh - Well, maybe he has issued more since he has signed every bill presented to him whereas other presidents simply vetoed the bill.

Plus I hardly see some of the things you list, like creating an Inst of Education Sciences with some director who can publish at will as really all that big a deal. I mean who could get exorcised about this other than a Bush hater? Not a big deal as far as I am concerned since even with a signing statement, a court can later find the act illegal. Big woop.

R Huse said...

Oh - PS I asked about the relevance since I don't exactly see why Bush issuing a signing statement, which is not breaking the law, has relevance to illegal aliens violating immigration laws. A signing statement is simply questioning whether congress has violated the law by violating separation of powers. Signing statements do not constitute violation of the law unless a court, not you but a court, finds that acting upon them did violate the law. If the signing statement holds up, then the congress is in violation, not the president. For your comparison to hold up you would have to list signing statements that have been ruled invalid in the courts. You have not, therefore, no relevance.

bjdorr said... "Have you seen this 11-year old girl?"

Most likely heading right for Mexico, as usual.

Daniel said...

If our jails/prisons didn't have so many illegal aliens in them then we could lock of more of our own criminals.

Anonymous said...

It should be recognized that we have Illegal Aliens here from all over the world and some of the Russians are really nasty bastards.

However, only the Mexicans seem to enjoy beating their wives into bloody pulps and stabbing their cousins after getting high on the drugs they imported from home.

Anonymous said...

Ah, Anon 9:46, if you hold true to those sentiments, perhaps you are out of touch with a majority of southern rednecks who do the same thing.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

Here's Anon 9:22's NY Times link: "An Immigrant Segment by Radio’s ‘Jersey Guys’ Draws Fire."