La Raza and Americans
A recent proposal in Congress — H.R. 1999, which was cosponsored in April by Reps. Ruben Hinojosa of Texas and Rick Renzi of Arizona — would provide $10 million a year to a radical immigration group, the National Council of La Raza (meaning "the race"). The bill offers funds for "community development and affordable housing projects and programs serving low- and moderate-income households," for families of "Hispanic origin."
No word on whether or not mixed-race families such as mine would be eligible for these programs. I am picturing the La Raza enforcement folks standing in the doorway holding one of those paint cards that you get from Home Depot with different shades of the same color. If you are brown enough they let you in.
NOTE: What is wrong with legislators from Texas and Arizona? Are the illegal aliens peeing in the water supply?
65 comments:
John Kyle of AZ is being denounced by the AZ Republican Party. They are threatening a recall. Too bad the Oregon Rino Party lacks the testosterone to confront el gordo (the panderer) smith.
The Marion County Republicans DID hand deliver(I drove to his Portland office today) and are fed-exing to DC a strong letter to Sen. Gordon Smith, including this closing sentence-"The 56,000 plus registered Republicans in Marion County urge you to oppose this
bill."(S-1348)
Also a person with the State Republican Party said "We have never had so many phone calls, it doesn't stop and NOT one was in favor of this Bill."
Also EVERY County Republican office in Oregon is being asked to do the same.
Also Gal at Simth's Portland office said the same ting about so many calls and YES he knows this!
Also person at meeting said that OR. Democrat Party has written a simillar letter to Sen. Ron Wyden.
Also Couty Rep. person said even they have gotten a barrage of phone calls, ALL against this bill.
OUR ACTIVISM IS WORKING-DON'T STOP!
OFIR Mtg. this Saturday.
There will be some signs YOU will want to get, don't miss this event!
I am white and a member of La Raza for going on 10 years now. I guess you just need to learn how to read. If you want to join, join and quit bitching.
http://www.nclr.org/section/supportus/join/
OK - so let's review:
Government is working feverishly to pass a bill that allows law breakers to become citizens and skip five years of taxes. If I am one day late on my quarterly taxes I am fined heavily.
A man infected with TB shows up at the boarder. The US border inspector disregards the computer screen warning "detain this person and don protective gear immediately". Apparently he felt that sounded discretionary. He is reassigned, not fired.
And now, the Government is going to give tax money to a racist group for them to hand out on a racist basis.
For this, I pay roughly 50% of my income.
Thom...
Joining isn't the point. The point is that a huge portion of La Raza funds are allocated for "hispanics" only, and are not made available to people of other races. That's fine; a community taking care of it's own...HOWEVER:
TAX DOLLARS FROM ALL TAXPAYERS should not be used for this purppose. Period. If the KKK or the Aryan Brotherhood asked for tax dollars, there would be no way in hell that it would happen, even if they were building homeless shelters and orphanages for white kids....it's discriminitory. Period.
Thom, maybe it's YOU who should read into things a little more thouroughly.
See, this is the camel's nose under the tent. Start with a little money now, to set a precedent, and keep building over time.
La Raza, in English,"The race".
What do you think would happen if Bush and Bill O'Reilly get their way and Mexicans keep flooding over the border?
During the '60's, '70's, and early '80's up until the 1986 Amnesty Act, there was also a large gap between wages here in America and in Mexico, but we didn't have the flood of illegal aliens because there was a sense in Mexico that the border was being enforced.
Now, that "sense" is gone, hence the flood of illegals.
La Raza has gained prominence, and now there is a sense of "entitlement" to be here illegally, hence the huge illegal alien protest marches and U.S. Senators speaking at racist conventions, telling the audience that people who believe in sovereighty,"are bigots and need to shutup".
But open borders people whether from the socialist left or the corporatist right have hugely underestimated the power of the issue, and how strongly it resonates with average Americans.
Enforcement by attrition and sharp border and interior enforcement will change the "sense" down in Mexico and even here that the La Raza attitude won't fly and illegal aliens are truly not welcome.
This "true clamp down" on the border will get the message through and we will again control our sovereignty.
We can do it. The political will is gelling and getting harder all the time.
The point is that a huge portion of La Raza funds are allocated for "hispanics" only, and are not made available to people of other races.
That is a weak arguement as there there is governmment funding allocated solely for "christian organizations" only and are not made available to other faiths.
Anon 12:26 -
That is a complete lie. Name names and sources or retrtact.
I, for one, refuse to do business with anyone who is not in this country legally. At the point-of-sale counter, I simply ask for identification. No driver's license? Sorry, no sale. It's easy, it's non-racist, and it works.
When Bush insults good Americans, who believe in American sovereignty by questioning their patriotism, my response is simple:
Bush is a BASTARD!
Leon,
Do you ask all clerks for identification, or only brown ones?
Bush is a bastard, I completely agree. I think we can all agree, that he is the biggest FAKE for a president ever. Meaning, he said he'll do one thing, and time and time and time again, he does the exact opposite of what his base wants.
I hope he's impeach, whether it be by demo's or real republicans, who gives a shit right? Keep up the fight Daniel, we are all behind you 100%
Odds are that the 70-year-old white woman wearing a "support the troops" ribbon is not asked to display her ID at the "point-of-sale" counter (as opposed to other counters in Leon's business). Ditto for the white buzz-cut 40-year old male with an NRA T-shirt. And the list goes on ...
Unlikely that he asks everyone, since he's probably savvy enough to know that his "legal" customers are going to figure his game out and rebel ... hell, even those who might be inclined to agree with him on illegal immigration. Some prick behind the "point-of-sale" counter asks me to identify myself for anything other than tobacco or booze, they're not getting my money.
I'll now sit back and wait for a seething response along the lines of, "We don't want your money you fuckin' anti-American faggot!"
Actually, we just don't want your pesos.
MR. DANIEL!!! L.O.L. !
BTW, we miss you, amy.
I listen to the amnesty plus spokesman, and I hear his bogus arguments, all the while he has a slight smile on his face (as in, it's an invasion and you gringos can't stop it), and I want to slap his face.
What do you do when a smiling stranger tells you, "I'm going to rape you, and there's nothing you can do to stop it".
Well you can just submit, or you fight back! First you slap him in the face, if he keeps smiling, you punch him and tell him to "stay down", if he gets back up, you kick him in the balls.
You wipe the sh#t eating grin off his face and let him know his lying arguments won't be tolerated.
What do you do when a guy looks at you and smiles and says "we're going to invade you..."?
You kick ass.
Nonprofit Orgaziation 990
Search for LA Raza and other Nonprofit 990's for free
http://tfcny.fdncenter.org/990s/990search/esearch.php
Let's kick La Raza's fucking ass to Mexico
Nope, no racism here!
Actually, there is lots of racism.
To anon811am:
Take a look at the Mecha outline provided by Daniel (lots of racism). Racism and Mexican nationalism are blatent.
Is it racism to to say "I will defend America from an invasion" from a country on America's border that has a historic grievence, where in the past week, audience members at the Miss Universe Pageant in Mexico City roundly booed Miss USA?
This same country promotes Mexican nationalism inside AMERICA by encouraging its citizens to vote in Mexican elections. Mexico's presidential candidates have campaigned in the United states of America.
So project your own racism all you want, meanwhile those who care about American sovereignty will keep fighting this radical bill.
You guys are really good at spotting fringe radical groups with a nationalist and race-centered orientation when it's someone else, but then you exhibit the EXACT same qualities yourselves.
Fringe groups? MeCHA??????
Do a search of ANY major university or college in this country... and you'll find it.
They're fringe like the NAACP is fringe.
---------------
A telling sign was the passage a few years ago of a bill in the California legislature that removed the term "minority" from entitlement laws. It replaced it with something along the lines of "disadvantaged socio-economic group." The reason being, that hispanics grew to outnumber caucasians..(stupid designation, since hispanics are considered caucasians).
So... the minority needs to support the majority in California... it's insane.
To anon1255pm:
Come again, what qualities do Americans who believe in the rule of law, sovereignty, and equality of citizenship have in comparison with La Raza and Metcha?
The three listed principles do not rely on racial characteristics or racial solidarity, where on the other hand La Raza and Metcha are all about racial solidarity.
Good citizens of every race, color, and creed believe in the principles of rule of law, sovereignty, and equality of citizenship.
Legal immigrants followed the law to become legal residents and eventually become citizens, they respected the above principles and depended on them to become citizens.
There should always be pride in America of doing it the right way, the legal way.
Legal immigrants are lasting testimony to that pride in following the rule of law and respecting America's sovereignty, while treasuring the greatest citizenship in the world.
You on the other hand have no problems with law breaking and border jumping, that in the end will cheapen all citizenship, and leave some more equal than others.
Yes, with all the different levels of status (including a new wave of illegal aliens), some dead ended others not, an ugly and perverse inequality would be present among our mists and soon, All Men Are Created Equal would be only empty words while Corporatists and Socialists would be fighting it out, as to what the rest of us are allowed.
This immigration bill is a threat to the Republic and the bed rock principles on which our Republic stands.
Americans of all races, colors, and creeds stand united against the barbaric future this Senate immmigation bill would loose upon our America the beautiful.
Listening to you guys insist that racism isn't central to your whole outlook is like watching Bill Clinton trying to parse and qualify his way through a tortured explanation of how he "didn't have sex" with that woman. Give me a fucking break.
To anon532pm:
You don't have an answer. I spelled it out clearly. Answer the argument if you can. I welcome the challenge.
But hiding behind racism is the last refuge of a scoundel.
You have no arguments left, just admit it. Take apart my statement if you can, but if you can't, be quiet before you embarrass yourself.
Listening to someone trying to "prove" to a bigot that he's a bigot is like watching someone try to explain what blue is to someone who's color-blind.
They started with "you're a racist."
We point to MeChA.
They insist that MeChA is fringe.
We remind them that MeChA exists on almost every college campus as well as many high school campuses. Search results for MeChA on my blog
They go back to insisting that we are racist.
Daniel, it's simple they don't have any substantive arguments.
Regardless of race color or creed they are here Illegally. What they need is a good swift kick in the ass, some birth control and sent back to their countries of origin.
From my email:
"From a California school teacher - - -
As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal
immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:
I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a
large southern California high school which is designated a Title
1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic
and income levels.
Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell
Gardens, Huntington Park, etc., where these students are
protesting, are also Title 1 schools.
Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program.
When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and
roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices
that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is
monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash
uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at
least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell
phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed
teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend
class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for
babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT
WORK)
I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing
funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need
for anything; my budget was already substantial.. I ended up
buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of
which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the
appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to
have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute
teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students
here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell
with the female teachers, calling them " Putas" whores and throwing
things that the teachers were in tears.
Free medical, free education, free food, day care etc., etc, etc.
Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country
but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?
To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants
contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and
housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some
time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.
Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical
costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools,
overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more
for tomatoes.
We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster
because we won't have the guts to enfo rce it.
Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily
leave and return?
There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that
contribute to our country and many that I consider my true
friends. We should encourage and accept those Hispanics who have
done it the right and legal way.
It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-
world culture that does not value education, that accepts children
getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses
to assimilate, and an American culture that has become so weak and
worried about "politically correctness" that we don't have the
will to do anything about it.
If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to
everyone you know.
CHEAP LABOR? Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is abou t?
Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.
Consumers don't want expensive produce.
Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.
But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a
myth, a farce, and a lie. there is no such thing as "cheap labor."
Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children.
He takes a job for $5.00 or $6.00/hour. At that wage, with six
dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if
he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit"
of up to $3,200 free.
He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.
He qualifies for food stamps.
He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.
His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.
He requires bilingual teachers and books.
He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.
If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for
SSI. Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All of
this is at (our) taxpayer's expense.
He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or
homeowners insurance.
Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed
material.
He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour
in benefits.
Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after
paying their bills and his.
The American taxpayers also pay for increased crime, graffiti and
trash clean-up.
Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT! Wake up people.
THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS WE SHOULD BE ADDRESSING TO THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES FOR EITHER PARTY. 'AND WHEN THEY LIE TO US AND DON'T DO AS THEY SAY, WE SHOULD REPLACE THEM AT ONCE!'
THIS HAS GOT TO BE PASSED ALONG TO AS MANY AS POSSIBLE OR WE WILL ALL GO DOWN THE DRAIN BECAUSE A FEW DON'T CARE."
Also from my email:
FW: Let's say I break into your house...
If you agree send it on, if you disagree delete it! Simple as that.....
Let's say I break into your house
Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.
Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely.
Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests. Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.
But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hardworking
and honest,
(except for when I broke into your house).
According to the protesters:
You are Required to let me stay in your house.
You are Required to add me to your family's insurance plan.
You are Required to Educate my kids.
You are Required to Provide other benefits to me & to my family.
(My husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hardworking and honest, except for that breaking in part.)
If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my
RIGHT to be there.
It's only fair, after all, because you have
a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm a hardworking and honest person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house.
And oh yeah, I get a free education, where you have to pay your own way through college.(TEEHEE)
And what a deal it is for me!!!
I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold,
uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and
bigoted behavior.
Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you to learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me. And don't forget to
Make sure your forms are in MY language - I need to understand them...
Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! Only in America.
if you agree, pass it on (in English ).
Share it if you see the value of it.
If not blow it off.........
Along with your future Social Security funds, and a lot of other things.
Anon 1:03, as someone who has come here occasionally to actually make substantive arguments, 9 times out of ten, the response invariably includes a 1- or 2-sentence grunt that's top-heavy with the following words/phrases:
Lib! <--- My favorite, can't even bring themselves to type the entire word.
Anti-American!
Liberal!
Traitor!
Scum!
Fag!
Asswipe!
I mentioned 9 times out of 10. What happens the tenth time? A wall of silence. As if I hadn't written anything at all. That, in my experience, is what happens when a "substantive argument" is put forth to counter some of the bigoted nonsense, hysterical paranoia and scapegoating bullshit that passes for your own "substantive" arguments.
That's how the game is played.
So fuck you.
The argument is there on the wall.
Have at it.
Here's your chance to knock down a substantive argument.
Can't do it.
Too bad. Sometimes you don't know when the bell is going to ring,
but you have to be ready to answer.
I can't speak for others, but when I'm on this blog, I enjoy answering an opposing argument.
I'll assume your "fuck you" was an admission of failure.
American Patriot: I'll take a shot at this.
Nationalism, particularly ultra-nationalism, is fundamentally reactionary no matter who it is -- U.S., Mexico, Britain, Iran, whatever. There obviously are groups and parties in Mexico as well as in this country whose ideology runs along those lines.
The relationship between nationalism and racism -- when the latter quality is present at all -- is complex, and difficult to pin down. But the prevailing, unspoken view on this board, embraced by Daniel and the rest, is that unless you're riding around the countryside at night in a white sheet with a torch burning crosses in fields where "aliens" work and hanging Latinos from trees, then you're clear and free of any hint of racial prejudice. That's ridiculous, of course. Bigotry doesn't come in a one-size-fits all format.
As for the group you mention, I'm not familiar with it. It seems to me that opponents of illegal immigration fall into the trap of connecting dots that aren't necessarily connected. Here's what I mean:
Yes, workers from South America make their way up here to work illegally. A lot of them. Most of them do that, and you never hear about them, because that's all they do, and they don't murder and steal, and they're not crowding our jails, and they're not raping your daughters. The overall thrust of Daniel's blog, and a large number of his posts, is that ALL of them are predisposed to that sort of behavior, that that's what "they" are like. If that's not racist, then I'd really like to know: What is?
At the same time, you've got all these groups and parties and whatever, and they all pound their chest and make big claims about grand plans, and you guys seem to gravitate to them and take them far, far too seriously, as if to say that THEY are the legitimate spokespeople for all those illegal workers, and that by the same token, all those illegal workers share their agenda (which you oppose, and are certainly entitled to oppose) and are actively trying to implement it, whatever it is.
I just don't think that connection can be made. The vast majority of working people -- American, Mexican, or otherwise -- are, at the moment, apolitical.
Regarding the suggestion that these groups are somehow infiltrating this country and its institutions, that's pretty much a byproduct of globalization, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing. But even before globalization, there was, and continues to be, a tradition of THIS country fucking around in South and Central America (and other countries, obviously) influencing elections, nudging political parties towards this or that agenda or candidate, and even assassination -- which, by the way, is terrorism by definition. It seems to me that if you're genuinely upset about people in country A meddling in the political and social life of country B, and if you're actually serious and objective about it, then you'll apply that principle across the board.
Are you willing to do that?
Anonymous said...
You guys are really good at spotting fringe radical groups with a nationalist and race-centered orientation when it's someone else, but then you exhibit the EXACT same qualities yourselves.
------
It's not race-centered... it is nationalist.
And there's a difference between our nationalist sentiments... and theirs...
Namely this is OUR NATION. If they are Mexican citzens and want to be pro-Mexican, more power to em... in Mexico. The same applies to any large group of foreign nationals... if you're not going to follow the rules WE have to... and you don't want to be a part of what we are... then go home.
I've put off throwing my cap over the wall in Daniel's recent immigration posts in the hopes that someone like Randy would write exactly what Randy just wrote. Well said.
Building off what Randy said, I wonder what you guys would do if your country was being messed with by a stronger government, and as a result there was no labor opportunities in your own country. If legally immigrating took 2,3,4 years, and your family was literally starving to death, what would you do?
I decided to do one better. I just donated $50 to the National Council of La Raza this evening after reading this weblog for the third time.
I am a caucasian American citizen of the U.S. and am sick and tired of the bigotry, hatred, and zenophobic rhetoric from cowards like Daniel, Lars larson, Victoria Taft, Jeff Kropf, "Rick Hickey" and the rest of the Republican ilk that call themselves "Christians".
It is specifically the kind of hatred I hear from individuals like Rep. Jeff Kropf, Lars Larson and the Oregonians for Immigration Reform/Minuteman group that led to the attack on two Latino men by a white mob in Oregon City. I urge the rest of those that are tired of the bigotry and hatred too, to give to La Raza or any group standing up to this garbage. Even if it is $5, every little bit counts. $50 sure ain't much, but it is definately is a better option that arguing with the knuckle dragging bigots that I see have posted here.
I do have to confess one thing before I go. I actually made my $50 donation to La Raza in the name of Daniel Miglavs, the author of this blog.
Excellent idea -- I'll match your $50 and make my contribution to La Raza in the name of Lars Larson. And just so the significance of this is not lost on Daniel Miglavs and his "patriotic American" fans, let me just add that prior to seeing this blog, I never would have DREAMED of giving money to La Raza.
You would hope that after all this time someone would come up with a better argument than the dull drone of "you are all racists". Obviously that is not the case. On the bright side, the faddish use of the word Xenophobe does seem to be on the decline, so for that I am thankful.
Are there people who post responses here that are blatantly racist, are some of these posters racist themselves? Of course.
While it is true that the racist posts here are seldom criticized by those on the pro border enforcement side, they are in fact criticized at times. I have done so and so have others. Lets contrast this with the oppositions treatment of groups like La Raza,. MEChA and others. Why does the left tolerate groups that are clearly racist if they are on the same side since it immediately neuters any claim they have to accuse others of racism?
I personally am embarrassed when someone who is on the same side of the issue as I am clearly has racist leanings. I think they should be criticized and have no problem doing so.
People on the other side of the issue would have a lot more credibility if they could simply accept that racism seems quite prevalent on their side. We have all seen the racist banners at the protests, and if we haven't, we can look up position statements from La Raza and MEChA. The pro amnesty side would look far more credible if they met La Raza, MEChA and the rest with a simple statement of "yes, they do seem totally racist, they do not seem to have Americas best interest at heart and yes, I want no part of that". Instead all we ever get is deflection. It is simply impossible to take seriously anyone defending a group like La Raza who then proceeds to call others racist.
To Randy559pm:
Nationalism is a sentiment about people and country that is always in dynamic tension.
Balance and moderation between the two opposite poles is important.
Zero Nationalism ie, pride in ones fellow Countrymen and the land and history they all share would threaten that very existence they all hold so dear.
Destructive Nationalism, or ultra-nationalism as you call it, leads to lashing out at other nations and peoples: A historic cause of war and much human suffering.
So, a healthy balance is called for to give stability and harmony.
You seem to hold Nationalism in too dark a light.
You never respond to the central tenents of my piece: Namely, The Rule of Law, Sovereignty, and Equality of Citizenship transend race, color and creed and the Senate amnesty bill compromies all three of those bedrock principles upon which the Republic was founded.
You speak of resident workers from South America who just want to work. Be it advisable that we don't want internal colonies of people who have no real interest in America and its best interests, or are ambivalent about America'a welfare.
America has a substantial legal immigration that is one of the most generous in the world.
Again, you fail to come to grips with how important it is that immigrants come in the right way the legal way. The pride in America and its laws and sovereinty are heightened which is a crucial first step in becoming an American, not a foreigner in a foreign land, wondering for work so that money can be sent back to your real homeland.
As to your argument that these workers are apolitical: There already is evidence that these workers have the capability to be very political, look at all the May Day illegal alien protest marchers with their Mexican flags.
And are there leaders willing to take advantage of that capability to cause "Social Change"? Yes. Social change by Americans is natural and proper, but agitation for social change by outside influences is wrong and destructive.
Mexico has historic grievences against the U.S.A., some would fan the flames of that grievence into unacceptable animosity in Mexican Nationals in this country today.
Yes, we should not be meddling in other country's internal affairs, but would I wish Mexico get its house in order.
However, the fact that Mexico can't get its house in order is no reason to crumble our own respect and new legal resident's respect for the principles I have outlined in my original argument and added to here
Until you show that it is enherently racist to demand the rule of law, respect for sovereignty, and demand absolute equality of citizenship, you haven't layed a glove on my argument and that's why your race baiting falls on deaf ears.
Randy, it should be noted that in your entire argument you never use the words, "rule of law", "sovereignty", and "equality of citizenship", or expand on the ideas and concepts they encompass.
Neither do you comment on the proper role of assimilation for new comers to America and the eccential role that plays in American stability and Social strength.
$$$ to la raza for the racist rhetoric on here is a great idea. i will do $25.
over at the donation page there is actually a gift on behalf of component. I will do it for victoria taft at kspam with their address so she will get la raza mail. what an awesome idea. thanks!
here is the link:
http://tinyurl.com/yq9u8o
Roger your "stunt" only confirms your willful disregard to your own position, and inability to articulate rational arguments.
Roger says,"I can have a double standard and be proud of my double standard."
Give all the money you want to La Raza, it's a free country, but don't pretend that helps your argument. if anything it means you are beyound reason.
A reasoned debate is not for you.
Yet all the people who are more open minded see your mind set and realize the inherent weakness of your position, or ability to contribute intelligently to the discussion.
Hopefully, you can bring more to the table next time.
Its a La Raza telethon. I put 5 bucks in "other amount" in the name of "American Patriot & Rick Hickey". Blue Oregon has a similar thing where you give to a campain everytime someone makes a disparaging or outlandish comment. I LIKE IT. Good idea whom ever thought it up
American Patriot: I was attempting to address more the big picture. But if you re-read my argument, concepts such as "rule of law" and "sovereignty" are certainly present. U.S. meddling in the domestic politics of Mexico or Venezuala or Cuba is infringing upon those countries sovereignty, is it not? Or to take the most obvious and embarrassing example, Iraq. How is the "sovereignty" of Iraq faring these days?
As long as we're taking note of what the other person didn't say, I think it's worth pointing out that you didn't answer my final question. Ultimately, that question is CENTRAL to the entire debate over immigration: Are you willing to apply your principles objectively, consistently and uniformly to ALL players? Because really, if your approach to analyzing international politics boils down to: "Americans can do what we want because we're the good guys," then you're really not being serious, in my view.
If you illigal immigrant supporters are so far gone into the touchy-feely world of political correctness that you can't see how damaging illegal immigration is to the sovreignty of our nation, and the only argument that you can offer basically boils down to "nationalism is racism" then I do believe that you should start doing some better research. I'm not talking researching blogs and websites that support your views, no. I'm talking doing some actual research from credible sources, (there are still a few out there).
Walk the streets in a predominantly illigal immigrant neighborhood for a few hours and ask yourself "What Country am I in?"
Well, nothing can possibly cement someone's lack of seriousness than by accusing others of racism while giving to La Raza, a clearly racist organization.
As far as US meddling goes, a big yawn to that argument. Mexico, through its encouragement of illegal immigration to the US can hardly be seen as all that pure.
Oh and then there is Iraq. Ever notice how no matter what the argument, it all comes down to Iraq? Oh well, another loser argument as Iraq was not a sovereign country when Bush the sequel decided to invade. Iraq was operating under terms of a surrender, the obligations of which they were in direct violation of, they got invaded as a result. Hardly a breech of sovereignty there.
Anyhoo.... The fact remains, if you give support to racist organizations, please understand that people will tend to treat any arguments you make accusing others of racism as pretty damn silly. And rightly so. If you are a racist, just admit it and be done with it. Its what MEChA does overtly and what La Raza does tacitly, for that at least I can have a little respect for them.
the only argument that you can offer basically boils down to "nationalism is racism"
Mr. Delucca, that is not what I said. This is what I said.
"The relationship between nationalism and racism -- when the latter quality is present at all -- is complex, and difficult to pin down."
Randy, I'm afraid you only see what you want.
"yes, we should not be meddling in other country's affairs..."
So, yes I answered you and acknowledged you point.
Is that clear. I guess you hope people don't read the other side, or your comprehension skills need work.
Again, your comprehension skills need improvement.
When I referred to "Rule of Law, Sovereignty, and Equality of Citizenship", I was referring to THIS country, AMERICA.
I respect your attempting to answer. But responding to a completely different aspect, really fails to address what I was talking about: the internal dynamics of American government and society.
You reveal yourself as an international socialist. Cuba? You are obviously more concerned about grievences other countries have against America, as opposed to what is in the best interest of America.
Randy, I'm sorry, but you are stupid. I was not analyzing international politics. That's what you wanted to do, I was analyzing internal politics of America.
But one track socialists don't care about America, we're just an oppressive nation.
Your an idiot.
Nice to see the American Patriot wrapping up an otherwise half-way interesting conversation with a bit of good old-fashioned insulting and name-calling. Nice way to take the high road, pal. Had my respect there for a while.
To anon 155pm:
The point of a discussion is to respond to points made in an opposing argument.
If all you want to do is change the subject, or you exhibit an inability for basic comprehension,
then,
all you deserve to be called is a stupid idiot.
Kinda like not being taken seriously when your response to an argument is to "give a contribution" to La Raza.
I decided that I will not coddle that idiocy. Nor will I coddle unresponsive arguments, masquerading as an intelligent responses.
You want to respond to an argument, fine, but be stupid and I'll hit you in the rhetorical balls as hard as I can.
This is too important a subject to put up with fools.
Good idea. I donated $10 in the name of the Oregon Minuetklan.
American Patriot: You were talking about America and domestic politics in the CONTEXT of a broader discussion of an issue that is by its very nature international in character. In case you hadn't noticed, domestic politics is CONNECTED with international politics. Local is global, and visa versa. The concept of sovereignty itself is bound up not only with the character of a nation's internal political situation, but with the nation's relationship to other nations.
Your allegations of socialist sympathies is bizarre. Everything I've said could just as easily have been stated by a Republican with brains, a Libertarian, or a Democrat. Your red-baiting is more suited to the 1950s, when it at least would have made a modicum of sense.
So, I'm a stupid idiot? Very classy. You initially struck me as a semi-serious type interested in a civil discussion. On that point, I was wrong. Have fun playing with your rhetorical balls. We're done here.
Let it be said, Randy never could respond to the basic argument: The Rule of Law, Sovereignty, and Equality of Citizenship is compromised by the Senate Amnesty bill. And that these three concepts transend race and racism, so that calling racist has no meaning.
Randy never could respond to that assertion.
Change the subject if you can't and that's what he did.
I thought he was "semi-serious", sorry, but serious people respond to the arguments made, not pretend to while changing the subject.
When someone is found out to be intellectually dishonest.
They get kicked in the balls.
You lie to my face and I'll kick you in the balls.
End of story.
Patriot, presuming you've been a supporter of the war in Iraq, then you relinquished your right to wax indignant about the "rule of law" and "sovereignty" several years ago. So did Miglavs. The U.S. government is at this time in violation of international law by trampling over the sovereignty of Iraq. Aggressive wars are war crimes pal, no matter who's doing the invading and bombing, and no matter whose sovereignty is being compromised. If you support that, then take "rule of law" and "sovereignty" and shove it up your fucking bigoted right-wing ass.
To bullshit police:
Too bad you can't respond to an argument. All you can do is parrot something you read somewhere.
Of course you are assuming, from what evidence? None. Again, change the subject.
Bullshit police you are a pathetic excuse for a nickname. Real bullshit police would actually have an argument. You need to be emasculated for society's own good.
But to give instruction: To take your argument at face value. Then you believe ALL AMERICANS are not entitled to the rule of law, or are entitled to the protection of sovereignty. Why? Because all Americans are responsible for Iraq. Remember Democrats voted for authorization too. Or in your universe, Americans who supported the war are not entitled to the rule of law, while those who didn't support the war and can prove it, are entitled to the rule of law? That would be scary...remember the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror.
So back we are, to all are guilty. Therefore ALL AMERICANS are not entitled to the rule of law, or protected by American sovereignty, and equality of citizenship. Got that, regardless of race, color or creed, under your theory...All Americans should die.
So when you actually look at your Iraq screed. What does it say? America is evil and Americans are bad and don't deserve any rights.
So you see, you are a pathetic America HATER that needs to be emasculated to keep from spreading sick self-hatred on your progeny.
I laugh when I see stupid statements like yours.
Did you get a high school diploma?
When did you become a self-hater?
Are you American?
You're a sad pathetic case.
I laugh when I see stupid statements like yours.
Or: An idiot's confession.
Hey Patriot:
I see you still haven't given up on your hypocritic ways.
You said: "Let it be said, Randy never could respond to the basic argument: The Rule of Law, Sovereignty, and Equality of Citizenship is compromised by the Senate Amnesty bill."
BUT you never responded to: "American Patriot: You were talking about America and domestic politics in the CONTEXT of a broader discussion of an issue that is by its very nature international in character. In case you hadn't noticed, domestic politics is CONNECTED with international politics. Local is global, and visa versa. The concept of sovereignty itself is bound up not only with the character of a nation's internal political situation, but with the nation's relationship to other nations."
Also, you bring into question the level of other's education, but judging by your ability to write and construct coherent arguments, I think it is we who question your ability to reason.
I've kicked your ass before, bear's anit.
Again, to get it though your thick head.
America's Citizenship, America's Rule of Law, and America's Sovereignty are internal matters and certainly not racist.
Sovereignty can involve other nations, but in the instint case, no nation is challenging our sovereignty...Not even Mexico tries to say America must take her citizens.
Trying to connect America's internal affairs to external grievences by other nations against America doesnt make sense unless you are an America HATER.
Our rights as Americans are not defined by the United States external affairs.
But international socialists would like to conflate internal and external issues to justify their hatred of America.
Have a nice day.
Bear's anit are you an America HATER?
'I've kicked your ass before, bear's anit."
So you are the same one who said before he would take the high ground and not hurl insults. Wow. Your hypocrisy knows no ends!
What leads us to further question your educational level are statements such as these:
"Trying to connect America's internal affairs to external grievences by other nations against America doesnt make sense unless you are an America HATER."
Ignoring the spelling and punctuation errors, you've dodged the question by accusing us of hating America. That argument is, at worst, infantile, and at best worthy of an uneducated extremist (lib or con).
"Our rights as Americans are not defined by the United States external affairs."
Yes they are, my friend. Foreign and international are merely social constructs useful for helping us define actions, but they cannot defy what is and what those things that are affect. What we do in Columbia, Nicaragua, and Iraq have direct effects on our legitimacy, specifically our desire as a nation to spread liberalism throughout the world (economically and politically). It reminds me of the maxim 'Freedom isn't free.' I believe nothing is truer than this, as the blood of thousands of Iraqis and other citizens nations that we've exploited shows.
To bring this into a more direct relevant scope, Mexico is helping pay for economically what we enjoy. You guys bitch a ton about 'big, evil corporations (like Wal-Mart for example; you guys seem to look the other way when they hire and support illegals) but say nothing about those very same corporations partake in those same practices in foreign countries using much more exploitative methods. Because of the absolutely shitty working conditions that the United States endorses , foreign nationals decide that it is worth the risk to live in the United States illegally. No matter how many times we deport illegal aliens, those same aliens will keep returning. I promise you, though, develop Mexico and we will see a sharp decrease in the number of illegal aliens coming to the United States.
Anyway, I think Randy was right when he said there was no use in arguing with you. I already know exactly what you're going to post next after reading perhaps the first paragraph of my argument:
da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da sovereignty da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da rule of law da da da da da da da da da da da da You American haterda da da da whatever.
So go ahead and repost. I enjoy reading the ramblings of a hypocrite.
I enjoy reading the confessions of a socialist, keep going Bear's anti.
But notice how I answer your arguments while you bring up irrevelancies.
Good night and good luck. You'll need it.
Patriot - look, give it up.
It simply is impossible to argue with anyone for whom words don't mean things.
Lets take a classic example : The "we invaded a sovereign country, Iraq, so we have no validity" argument. Right then you know you are dealing with someone who:
a) Might not understand what a sovereign country is as Iraq clearly was not sovereign, it was operating under terms of surrender, the exact opposite of sovereign.
b) Doesn't really care about that fairly obvious fact and simply wants to hurl extreme language. This need probably being due to a habit has being formed when discussing the opposition with his friends.
c) Goes on to use that extreme language as a tactic, to imply your position is extreme, thus satisfying moral superiority on his part when his initial argument is not accepted.
Its a fairly silly game, but unfortunately one that is played out a lot here.
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