No offense, Miglavs, but I'd much rather have that "law-breaker" as my neighbor than you. Seems like a nice kid with more grace and class in his little finger than exists in all of Miglavia.That you lump the people featured on this story in with rapists and drug dealers all because they are undocumented immigrants is laughable. As far as I can tell, you don't have an argument other than "but it's illegal", and that is why you guys are going to lose this one. Laws change. Immigration reform is coming, and you're not going to like it. On the bright side, Lars is going to have some great ratings as the reform package gets debated.
Yesterday, sunday, in the S-J they had a story of another Carlos, Carlos Ruiz, a Spanish Teacher at W. Salem HS.PLEASE all of you read it.Facts from story...He learned english well enough in only TWO years as to take college courses (Immersion does work). His Parents, who have lived here for 30 years, still do not speak english (your gov't helps them anyhow with your $). They both work (Yes they both have a JOB, unlike many of you, as do ALL thier kids, HA!) in a cannery to this day, yet somehow fed, clothed, housed and Medically took care of 6 kids (OHP, OR. Trail, Sec. 8, etc.). His Dad was given Amnesty in 1986.So?They had to have Government "help" i.e. tax payer socialist programs, to survive. They TAKE much more in taxes than they have ever paid into the sytem and soon will be on S.S./Medicare too. Meanwhile they will all get the new "Free" payments for Med. Insurance.Another Amnesty will ony put millions more low income new "immigrants" into our welfare system.YOU are paying much more than that retail price for canned food.We can NOT afford to and should not add more to our programs while tens of millions of americans want to work, even in a cannery.Sen. HARRY REID said sat. to an open border rally in NV. (by far, the largest group yet to show up to support his re-election are illegal's and their 21st century slave owners) "We will pass immigration reform just like we passed health care". Starting this week!Massive immigration, legal & illegal, in the last 20 years has resulted in the largest number of people getting Food Stmaps and UNemployment checks in our nations history and an additional 2 MIL. new Union owned Gov't workers to take care of these people. This IS the most expensive "Cheap" labor in history, it must STOP!
Anon 8:51, one simple question:If what you claim is true, why doesn't economic research support your claims?
The Prof. of economics at Harvard-George Borjas does back this up. In fact his report proving of the depressed wages from this massive influx, helped Arizona pass laws against hiring illegals. The 9th Circut court of appeals agreed with him.Also former Grace Comission leader-Edwin Rubenstein, has calculated over $300 Billion, yes billion, a year is going to "immigrants" for social services.Can you use logic? Tens of millions of low paid new workers DO qualify for assistance via Babies & fake ID. Hello?Also remember Supply & Demand from HS? We have had a huge over supply of desperate 3rd world workers for far too long. Many companies prefer to hire the cheapest, only to them, workers and as illegals, less likely to complain. Also Democrats need/want to increase their slaves to government programs and as likely voters who don't pay for the D's tax increases via make to little to pay squat. Harry Redi biggest supporters are illegals and Nancy Pelosi loves "cheap, non-whining" illegals for her Wine Farm.If your "Economic research" is from the coalition for a working oregon report, consider two important facts from that report...1. Prof. who compiled report said in it he did not include tax payer services given to immigrants, as that would have been too hard too do. 2. Coalition IS AG, Restaurants, nurseries, etc. Companies that hire illegals. Hello?My Uncle built homes his whole life (he's 53) in Ill. As a journeyman carpenter he made $40/hr. in the 70's & 80's and did support his Family with no gov't help and actually paid a lot of taxes. When the Ill. economy crashed in the 90's, he went to AZ. for work, as they were building many homes there. Soon, he had to learn Spanish there and was only making $15/hr. as the "immigrants" would under bid him repeadetly. He lost everything in 2 years there and Grandpa moved him and his family back to Ill.The faulty built complaints in AZ. jumped over 1,000%, as well as Liability rates for construction rates went thru the roof there.Another more recent Gov't report shows more than 1/2, or 25 Million, "immigrants" with Kids, are on some type of welfare, added in just the last ten years.We all either pay taxes or take tax monies via "programs". The huge growing number of low income workers has resulted in 47% paying NO income taxes, as reported all over the media last week. What will happen when that 53% can no longer pay into the sytem?In memory of Bob Krentz...Build that Wall, it IS the law, and enforce immigration laws before we have another 9-11-01!
Anon 9:58 - Such emotion-laden "argument" usually betray an opinion, the holder of which knows is baseless, empirically, and to compensate, needs to shout, yell, etc. I'm also suspicious of people who hand-pick evidence to support their arguments. You cite Borjas as God-given truth, but seem ignorant of the fact that within the field of Economics, Borjas has been greatly challenged and disputed. David Card has a number of papers, some published in economics journals, others at the National Bureau of Economics Research, that, in my reading of them, leave little doubt that Borjas has it wrong. Giovanni Peri also has a number of papers that are in line with Card's conclusions.Moreover, Clinton put together a commission of the brightest economists and demographers in the country in the 1990s to study the economic and fiscal effects of immigration. This book was published in 1998 by the National Academies Press (Smith and Edmonston), and their general conclusion was that after going through all of the evidence, there was nothing to support the conclusion that immigration has negative impacts on our economy or labor market. Before you start making snide comments about my understanding of supply and demand, maybe you should re-evaluate your intro to microeconomics text. Focus particularly on the chapter covering the terms "substitute" and "complements" because this is what the Borjas v. Card/Peri, etc. debate is all about. Increasing the supply of foreign-born workers will negatively impact employment and wages of native-born workers only insofar as they are the former are perfect substitutes for the latter. Card's evidence suggests that low-skilled foreign-born workers are complements in the labor market, rather than substitutes, and I just haven't seen good evidence to the contrary. Only anecdotal stories about Uncle Jeb who couldn't hack it in Arizona and had to go back to Illinois with his tail between his legs. And finally, if you're going to rely on Vdare.com as an authority on the economics of immigration, well then, we're just going have to stop the discussion there, because the guy (Rubenstein) is a nutjob. If he's so certain of his research, why not submit it for peer review and publication in distinguished journals like everyone else does?
ANON 10:49 AMYou don't have to be an expert to figure out massive legal and illegal immigration is bad. Why don't you look at the state directly to our south. They are going over the cliff economically.Why don't you ask Dani Countryman's family about the negative impact of illegal immigration.I can't believe anyone these days thinks illegal immigration is a good thing. I can't think of one thing that is positive about illegal immigration. I guess if you have your lawn mowed cheaply, that could be positive. But when the illegal gets hurt and goes to the emergency room, that cheaply mowed lawn is not so cheap anymore. When their children attend our schools at 13k a head, that is not a good thing.Can you tell me one positive reason to have the illegal aliens here?
Dave, Nuance is really something that eludes the Miglavian mind, isn't it.To say that I favor illegal immigration because you and I differ over its policy remedy is just pure BS, and I'm sorry, I'm not going play that game. You act as if I prefer the status quo, and have no problems with illegal immigrants. Total bullshit of your own fabrication.I can't think of one good reason to have people living here under an uncertain legal status. But I believe granting amnesty to those who haven't been convicted of a major crime and who have (at least among householders) a steady pattern of employment during their time here is a better way of resolving the situation than your policy, which appears to be building a wall everyone knows we cannot afford, and hoping, through I guess overheated rhetoric and constitutionally questionable deterrent policies that those here will simply go home (even though data shows that even in this economy, those already here aren't going home).With all due respect to the family of Dani Countryman (who you bring up nearly every post), who are enduring the unimaginable, and what no parent should ever have to endure, all groups have a few really bad apples who commit heinous acts, not just immigrants, or even illegal immigrants. To characterize an entire group by the actions of a heinous few is ridiculous. To fashion a national immigration policy based on these few bad apples is pure foolishness. The reality, Dave, is that in the years to come, we are going to need all of the immigrants we can get at a time when the supply of immigrants around the world is going to diminish. I've written this countless times on this blog before, and it always falls on deaf ears, so I won't belabor the point much again. Simply put, the size of the baby boomer cohort is huge, and they are about to transition, en masse, from paying in to social security, to drawing on it. By and large, baby boomers were well educated, but had few kids. Who is going to replace them in the labor market? To a large extent, the children of immigrants.Do the math, Dave. Can you argue with the math? In 1970, the fertility rate in Mexico was over 7 kids per woman. Now, it is 2.4. That endless supply of brown invaders from the South that has Miglavian panties in a bunch isn't endless after all. It's about to dry up. We have to invest heavily in kids right now, including immigrant kids, using the same types of programs that created the baby boomers - pell grants, the gi-bill, federal funding of science research, etc - all of the kinds of programs conservatives have been undermining since the 1970s.If we don't, we have no choice but to shrink our economy, and, potentially accept a spot a little further down the global pecking order.
Yes we need immigration reform. We need to provide a better way for the upstanding people to come here legally while keeping out the illegals who cross the border, often bringing with them illegal drugs and nice folks like the MS13 gang members (one of the most violent gangs in the country, it came here from Honduras).While the illegals are crossing the border, people trying to come here legally have to wait about 10 years to get approval. That is plain wrong, we reward the criminals while punishing the upstanding people we would want to come here.We need to get control of our borders, enforce laws against hiring illegals, and only after that is done consider a very limited way for some to become legal.And don't accuse me of being racist. I teach citizenship to Hispanics who are here legally and want to become citizens. I have many friends from the Hispanic community (Yes, I am fluent in their language). I'm not against Hispanics but am against criminals who come here illegally and often bring the worst of their society with them.
Hal, A substantial share of immigrants in the country illegally have paperwork that is in process, and jammed up in the backlog you speak of. Mexicans face the longest processing time, up to 14 years, depending on the category of the visa application. The quotas that were set back in 1965 make no sense. When the lion's share of our low-skilled labor demand is filled by our neighbors in Mexico, how does it make sense for Mexico to have the same quota as Croatia. Why not give unmet quotas around the world to countries like Mexico and recalibrate on a year by year basis. Again, if we could just process visas faster, the size of the illegal population would be substantially reduced. Beyond that, I think you restrictionists really need to stop acting like nothing has been done over the past two decades with respect to the policing and enforcement of illegal immigration over the past two decades. You sound like little children who want attention, even though what you are saying is absurd. Read Douglas Massey's excellent book, Beyond Smoke and Mirrors (Russell Sage 2002). Between the late 1980s and 2000, the budget for the border patrol increased eight-fold! Is this doing nothing? I doubt things changed at all during the 2000s either. During the same period, we got less bang for our buck. We now pay more in line-watch hours per illegal immigrant apprehension than we did in 1987.Therefore, like other conservative ideas, this one appears not to have solved the problem, but these Minutemen types (what happened to the Minutemen anyway?) are simply unswayed by data and reality and want to continue shoveling money into efforts that have proven ineffective. That is the very definition of insanity.
3:14, BS! DHS report shows that in 2009, we allowed over 1 MILLION new immigrants to come here. Most, as every year, by a huge majority, from Mexico.Over 1 in 5 americans not working full time and you think we should bring in another 1 million people, not including the 1/2 million illegals.For over 2 decades immigation book of facts published by us gov't shows a huge disproportinate numbers coming from Mexico.Again how can so many will work for anything workers not depress wages? How can adding so many to the low paid worker need services roles, help our economy?
They can go live in Baja, Mexico or other American enclaves. Good grief. Our kids can go to Afghanistan or anywhere around the globe at age 18 and they can get by and help others. These "immigrants" are so caught up in their self-pity.There are lots of other countries where they would find the welcome mat. And people from India - have India.What is wrong with India? They create problems in one place and then want us to save them from themselves.
For some Mexican immigrants it only takes a little over a year to get their papers approved - and by whom - officials in a country that is consummed with corruption? We are supposed to be grateful that people who might be murderers who paid off the policia - are here?They feel no shame about dealing drugs, talking about dealing drugs and not assimilating at all. Kick them out and NOW. Most of us have dealt with immigrants - we have them in our families and we have worked with them.We don't need statistical information to help guide us. If we don't want more people in our jails, schools and on our highways, that is our right. Neither do a lot of other countries who have HAD a decent standard of living.And standard of living is not all about monetary values. It is about safety, peace and happiness as well. Oregon was a much happier place before the illegals started running here in droves. We didn't have gangs, gang fights in small towns, fighting over language issues, grafitti...we had a more peaceful state.
Police near campuses in the San Diego are arresting cartel members who sell drugs openly. Supposedly, they are the best and brightest students - appearing to be bona fide - living in fraternity houses, etc.So, even if given a chance, they blow it. What is wrong with this picture?
More recent proof of americans suffering needlessly from massive immigration...and a Black Pres. ignoring his own people...LSU Study: Latino Immigration Creates Problems In Black CommunityAuthors Link Influx Of Hispanic Workers, Increase In Violence Among African-AmericansPOSTED: 10:41 am CDT April 12, 2010UPDATED: 11:45 am CDT April 12, 2010 http://www.wdsu.com/mostpopular/23124052/detail.htmlBATON ROUGE, La. -- A study by an LSU sociology professor and doctoral student suggests the influx of Latino workers into a city increases unemployment and violence in the African-American community. The findings are published in the journal "Social Forces." Professor Edward Shihadeh and Ph.D. Candidate Raymond Barranco conclude the arrival of large numbers of immigrant workers in an urban area displaces blacks from low-skill jobs. That, in turn, leads to an uptick in violence. "This is an unintended but significant result of immigration policies," Shihadeh said. "This is not a blame game. We do not advocate restricting the flow of Latino migrants in either direction. "Our study simply describes how immigration policy opened a new chapter in the history of the U.S. labor market and how that harmed black communities." The study notes that Latino workers who enter the United States illegally are less likely to return home than in years past for fear they won't be able to get back across the border at a later time. "Blacks and Latinos both feel singled out and put upon, but few will address these issues because they're politically explosive," Shihadeh said. "The public mood makes this subject a live wire."
All I'm saying is that this stuff is debatable. Not clear cut, so stop acting as if it is. Here is the abstract from a paper in Rural Sociology that directly contradicts the assertions put forth by the LSU researchers:Crowley, Martha, and Daniel T. Lichter. 2009. "Social Disorganization in New Latino Destinations?" Rural Sociology 74(4): 573-604. Rural industrial restructuring, including growth in meat processing and other nondurable manufacturing, has generated employment opportunities that have attracted Latino in-migrants to new nonmetropolitan destinations. Long-time residents, however, are not always receptive. While some observers point to economic and social benefits of a Latino influx, others believe that the newcomers drain local resources, raise poverty and crime rates, and diminish the quality of life in their communities. We evaluate the influence of rapid population grwoth on emerging Latino destinations-new boomtowns. We use data from the U.S. census and other sources to measure changes in local economic circumstances and the quality of life in nonmetropolitan boom counties experiencing high rates of Latino growth between 1990 and 2000. Our findings indicate that large influxes of Latinos had surprisingly few negative economic consequences for local populations. Furthermore, the quality of life in new destinations did not deteriorate in comparison to other nonmetropolitan counties, especially with regard to crime. Mounting pressure to educate students with limited English proficiency is nevertheless apparent. Our conclusion highlights relevant national policy debates and underscores the need for commitment on the part of firms responsible for Latino growth.
From this report..."Our findings indicate that large influxes of Latinos had surprisingly few negative economic consequences for local populations".BS-Meat packers made over $20/hr. in the 1980's and had full Family benefits, such as medical and disability and belonged to a Union.Now the illegals are thrilled to get 1/2 of that with no benefits or union, even with inflation.report..."Mounting pressure to educate students with limited English proficiency is nevertheless apparent". As in over 5 Million in ESL nationwide now, over 85% spanish speakers, costing us over $10,000 p/student (here over $13,000 each for up to 10 years). This IS the #1 reason our Schools are broke, even though they keep increasing funding at a rate way above inflation.report..."others believe that the newcomers drain local resources, raise poverty and crime rates, and diminish the quality of life in their communities".drain resources? The state with the most immigrants-California, is proof of how massive immigration has destroyed the economy. Or they would be benefitting the most right? crime rates? Arizona has a law where all criminals must state their immigration status before the Judge and they keep records. Look up Maricopa County jail records (they have a web page for this), over 1 in 4 in Jail is an illegal, yet illegals are only 1 in 10 of over all population.Here in Oregon, we have had a 23% increase in illegals in our State Prisons, in only 2 years. Majority are for Raping Kids/Adults and Drug dealing of Meth, Herion, not just posession of a baggie of weed.Quality of life? Lack of communication always deteriorates quality of life. and tens of millions who don't bother to learn the language of their new home-English, reduce everyones quality of life. And just gives Big Brother a good reason to hire more gov't workers to "help" the ignorant millions that snuck in here.
ANON 1:59 PMI don't have problems with nuances.If you are the anon poster from 10:49am, yes you do favor illegal immigration. You need to tell yourself the truth. You attack somebody for using an emotion-laden argument. I guess you have never been emotional enough about anything to get involved. You are truly hopeless if that is the case.You state that Clinton put together a commission in the 90's. You said that they determined that here was nothing to support the conclusion that immigration has negative impacts on our economy or labor market. I call horse shit on that. Open your eyes, it's all around you. We have probably forty million illegals in this country. Let's say about ten percent of the workforce. These are not the lettuce picking jobs. These are factory jobs and construction. You have been lied to and you believe the lies. I go into a lot of these factories. I see the facts.You want to grant amnesty to those who have not committed a major crime. What is your definition of a major crime? Would that be a felony? They may not have been convicted, but they have committed them. All of the adults and a lot of the children have committed felonies. Let's deal in facts now. If they were thrown out of our country once and came back, that is a felony. Since they can't legally work here, they commit identity theft. They use somebody's SSN to work. That is a felony. If they don't pay taxes, that is a felony. Do you know anyone who has lost a job? Why don't you let them know there is a job for them but you don't want them to have it. Let's talk about that wall now. A few billion bucks and we can't afford it. That is more horse shit. People die everyday in this country from illegal aliens. Let's look at the financial cost since you don't seem to give a shit about their lives. I seem to remember that each murder costs about a million dollars. I could be wrong but that sounds about right. Multiply that by 12 murders everyday. That's about 4,380 murders each year. My math tells me that the cost is over four billion dollars. If I remember correctly they were talking about 25 billion for ten years to build it and maintain it for 20 years. That's 2.5 billion a year. If we built that fence, we would save almost two billion a year. I'm not sure where you got your information from, but your information is bullshit and your math sucks. I didn't even get into the drunk driving deaths which have similar numbers. I'm not sure which math classes you took but, we can't afford not to build that fence.You said:all groups have a few really bad apples who commit heinous acts, not just immigrants, or even illegal immigrantsI agree. However, these are preventable deaths. Are you telling me that Dani being raped and murdered is just the cost of doing business? That cost is too high for me.The problem is that the illegals have broken more than one law. As I showed you above, they commit felonies. This whole class started with breaking the law just to get here. They will not be the laws abiding people you think they are. Facts prove they are not.People like you make me sick. I have two grand children and Dani Countryman really brought it home for me. The real cost for your cheap lettuce is just too high. It's not worth a family or friend. I'll pay a few cents more for a head of lettuce.Emotional and factual just for you.
Dave, You are simply not dealing seriously with the facts. When you call "bullshit" on the findings from a commission of the nation's best social scientists, that is not an argument. It's emotional frustration that the standing body of research on the matter doesn't line up with desired policy remedy. The more I try to engage in a rational and sober discussion, the more heated and vitriolic the Miglavian horde gets. It really is useless to keep going.As I stated, I feel horrible for Dani Countryman and her family. I have a young daughter, so obviously I can empathize with the horror of that on a personal and emotional level.But when it comes to policy, I want my legislators to discuss things based on a sober assessment the data and problems at hand. Of course we need to fashion an immigration policy that will be as effective as reasonably possible in keeping out the types of thugs who come here illegally and commit these types of crimes. But the reality is this: (a) unless you're okay with living in a police state, you're never going to be able to keep all the bad guys out and (b) it's simply irrational policy to approach the illegal immigration issue as if a substantial share of illegal immigrants are violent criminals. They're clearly not. If they were, the 1990s and 2000s would have experienced a surge in the violent crime rate, when it in fact plummeted. Can you explain that one?Finally, Dave, when you start flinging around estimates of the illegal population that approach 40 million, no one outside of Miglavia is going to take you seriously. How could the nation's most highly skilled demographers, whose job it is to estimate such things as Census undercount, under-coverage, etc. Right now, the most widely-agreed upon estimate, Jeff Passel's estimate is below 12 million. Dave, do you really think it's possible that a whole field that studies the nation's population scientifically has underestimated the illegal population by 28 million?!? You probably do, which is why it's probably best to call it a day. Have a nice one.
You never did answer my question about what you consider a crime? Now you bring up violent criminals. You keep changing the reference point.Remember the first amnesty in 1986? Would those highly skilled demographers be the same folks who estimated that amnesty would be about 1.1 to 1.3 million illegal aliens? It ended up being about three million and the border was never secured as promised. You say Jeff Passel's estimate is 12 million. That was in 2006, don't you think a few more snuck in since then? I'm guessing it was over twenty million in 2006. Common sense tells us that. Four more years of not enforcing our laws and that means millions more. How can you count them if they are undocumented. You can only make guesses. Guesses can by very far off.You know that research can be skewed any way you want it to. I've done my fair share of research papers. Maybe you haven't done any research papers. I have just seen a lot of the global science community say the science is settled that man is the primary cause of global warming. I see scientists saying the oceans will rise if the polar caps melt. I know for a fact if the north pole melted, nothing would happen to the sea levels. I've seen in a peer reviewed UN report that the glaciers in the himalayas would melt by 2035. It's impossible unless the temperature jumped through the roof. A lot more than a few degrees. That's called science.A lot of facts these days seem to be bullshit once you get right down to look at the numbers. I used to trust a lot of the information coming from our government, not I trust it very little. If it has to do with any political agenda or money, I immediately distrust it until is has been proven by other sources.I say let's count the illegals and figure out exactly how much they cost us. Then we can base our decisions upon facts.
I can't believe I keep taking the bait."You say Jeff Passel's estimate is 12 million. That was in 2006, don't you think a few more snuck in since then? I'm guessing it was over twenty million in 2006. Common sense tells us that. Four more years of not enforcing our laws and that means millions more. How can you count them if they are undocumented. You can only make guesses. Guesses can by very far off."I'm sorry, Dave. I was trying to be nice, but this is simply an ignorant comment. An estimate and a guess aren't the same thing. In population science, an estimate is based on data and mathematics. Passel's method is called the residual method. Look it up for yourself. Based on fertility and mortality data, the size of the population can be projected into the future. From one Census to the next, we know how many people died, how many were born, and how many were legally admitted into the country by the Department of Homeland Security. Based on post-enumeration surveys conducted after the census, we also have a good idea of how good our coverage was during the census and the rate of undercount within pretty narrow confidence intervals. After adjusting the census population count for undercount and undercoverage, the difference between the total enumerated population and the projected population based on mortality, fertility, and legal immigration (i.e., the residual) is the estimated undocumented population. It's a science, Dave. It's not like guessing the number of jelly beans in a jar. If you want to refute a scientifically-based estimate, you have to engage with the science; it can't be done with a guess.
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