Wednesday, July 06, 2011

Because I would hate to see a criminal enterprise crumble

Oregon businesses join with unusual allies to press for comprehensive immigration reform
With Congress edging back into the battle over immigration reform, the leading House proposal is drawing opposition from a surprising place - Oregon businesses.

One of the leaders, Jeff Stone, executive director of the Oregon Association of Nurseries, calls the legislation introduced by House Judiciary Committee chairman Lamar Smith, R-Tex., "a recipe for disaster, not only for agriculture but for the national economy."

"In the worst case," he says, "you could see some Oregon operations crumble."

Smith's proposal would require all employers to use a federal database known as E-Verify to confirm that a prospective worker is legal. Currently, 250,000 businesses use E-Verify on a voluntary basis. That number would jump to 6 million if it became mandatory.

In unrelated news several local area bars and liquor stores are protesting a law requiring them to ask for ID when a patron looks under the age of 21. "This will cost us money" said the owner of one tavern.

Also, gun shops and sporting goods stores have now decided to treat form 4473 as a mere formality. "Sure we have someone fill it out, but we can't actually be bothered to verify if the information is accurate" was the response of most gun stores. An industry advocate said "Our business model requires that we sell firearms to felons and those prohibited by law, when we ignore the rules we make more money."

In news related to the economy it seems that local business have taken to pirating software on a mass scale. "I would estimate that 70% of our business software is undocumented" said one local office who wished to remain anonymous. It seems that companies have figured out that if they break the law it can only strengthen the bottom line.


Anonymous said...

People go to jail for identity theft but for some reason illegal aliens do not. Citizens must prove they are citizens to get a job or a drivers license but illegals do not. We need to start putting illegals in jail and perhaps some politicians too.

Anonymous said...

You miss the larger point here Daniel. The reason that nurseries and other similarly situated businesses are against this, and want reforms such as immigrant worker visas, is because they understand a fact that people like you wish to deny: that without the labor pool provided by these immigrants, there wouldn’t be the labor to keep the doors open.

But I know, I know…”Americans will do those jobs”. No, they won’t. That is a myth perpetuated under the idea that “If you repeat something often enough, it becomes true.”

As I’ve posted here before, I still remember Lars Larson interviewing the owner of Wasatch Brewing in Utah. This brewery owner said that yes, he suspects that some of his workers may be illegal, but he literally and legally can’t do anything about that if they have “paperwork”. He said that he would LOVE to hire Americans for the jobs at his breweries, but that few Americans would apply for the jobs. (And these were relatively good jobs, with good benefits packages.) This brewery owner (who was a conservative if I correctly recall) told Lars that it’s easy to sit in a radio booth and say “Americans will do these jobs”, but that the reality of the situation is simply much different. In point of fact, most Americans will NOT do a great deal of the work that is currently done by illegals. And just saying that they will, doesn’t make it true.

Why won’t Americans do some of this work? I don’t know. I have my own theory, which isn’t particularly flattering. I think that our current 10% unemployment rate for uneducated people (remember, the unemployment rate for college-educated people is less than 5%) exist because, quite frankly, the bottom 10% of the labor pool sucks. (This is true at most companies, btw.) These are largely people who are not reliable, have little work ethic, are not particularly bright, and who in all other manners are not particularly employable. When the economy is good, and companies simply need warm bodies to do work, they put up with these workers only because they have to. They need the labor. But when the economy isn’t humming along, all of the sudden these people – who were never good employment candidates to begin with – find that there is less tolerance and need to deal with their inability to work at even a minimally competent level. And it is THESE PEOPLE who absolutely will not do hard work in fields, nurseries, etc. Which is precisely what these businesses in the agricultural industry are trying to tell you…even though you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend like it isn’t true.

The illegal alien “problem” is an economic problem, not a social problem like the Daniel’s of the world would like it to be. Their labor is demanded and so, just as any economist would tell you, their labor is supplied. You attempt to get rid of this labor, and you will devastate the economy when there is no one to pick the produce, or when you can only get people to pick produce for $14/hour.

Keep spitting in the wind, Daniel. But be sure to bring a towel with you.

Anonymous said...

Wait a second... you are an advocate for "small" government, but now you're supporting a national database that will give our personal information to the government in a "big brother" fashion?

If this was tied to anything besides immigration, you and your fellow "conservatives" would be screaming bloody murder.

MAX Redline said...

Dust Storm Devours Phoenix

this is what happens when you deport all the landscapers. /sarc

Anonymous said...

Right-wingers LOVE, LOVE, LOVE capitalism and the free market ... except when it comes to Latinos doing the work. For the purposes of the free market, national boundaries literally don't exist anymore, but the Miglavians want to spend billions (on fences, guards, guns, etc.) pretending they do.

Miglavs doesn't just miss the larger point. He misses ALL the points, large and small. He's an idiot.

Anonymous said...

I don't believe this is because "we need labor". I think it is because they want cheap labor. We should offer to choices: 1)Nurseries and farms must offer a real wage which would attract citizens to the labor pool. Lets say that would be between $12-$16 an hour.
2)Everyone who hires an illegal would have to pay the state in addition to whatever they pay the illegal an amount to offset the costs of illegals. The costs of schools, hospitals, welfare and police. A fair amount might be about $15-$20 an hour levied on the employer each month.
Either choice would solve both the employers problems and the states/citizens problem.

Anonymous said...

Nurseries and farms must offer a real wage ...

Terrific idea, except when those of us of my political persuasion suggest this, we're called "communists." And if it's Dumb Dave, he'll also say I want to send women, children and Jews to a concentration camp and have them gassed to death.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:55, your post is a classic reminder of how anti-illegal alien “conservatives” like you (and Daniel) have no real, philosophical problem with government regulating all kinds of things…just as long as you personally agree with what’s being regulated. You have no real problem with large, intrusive government…until that same government starts doing things you don’t personally like. It is this complete lack of “principle” that underlines your politics.

You suggest that government REQUIRE small business to pay a “real wage”. Really??? I thought conservatives were against the government controlling what a business has to pay an employee. And yet, you want the government to REQUIRE them to pay what is essentially a “living wage” to employees? As the poster above me said, when left-leaning people suggest this, ohs the noes…it’s SOCIALISM!!!

Fact is, it is not just business that “wants” cheap labor. It is Americans, in general, who DEMAND it! You know as well as I do that Americans, including conservatives, bitch and moan when the price of anything goes up 10 cents. I hear the Daniels of the world say, “We’re willing to pay for the increased cost of goods”, but in reality, no thinking person would buy that for a New York minute. As we’ve seen with gas prices, there is a very real, very serious negative effect on other spending when the prices of necessary goods (like gas, food, etc.) goes up. It hurts the economy in a big way. And yet, Daniel wants to hurt the economy by driving up the prices of food substantially because, well, illegal aliens are “icky”. (And yes, I honestly believe that the motivations of people like Daniel are suspect, and for SOME – not all, but some – are indeed based in little more than ol’ fashioned racism.)

Then, of course there’s always the interesting hypocrisy concerning the free market. People like Daniel claim they are all for free markets. And yet, when it comes to the market for labor, they absolutely want big government socialism to restrict who can and can’t work, and what they need to pay them.

At the end of the day, there are about 15,000,000 illegals here, most of them working. The “Daniel approach” is to send ‘em all back. In other words, it isn’t a serious approach at all, and rightly as a result most people don’t take the Daniels of the world seriously. You can get on board and help create a worker visa system that allows for their labor, or you can sit on the sidelines and bitch about it while we take care of the issue as we see fit. At the end of the day, you’re not going to get what you want. The simple laws of economics will see to that. Not that I think for a minute that you understand the economic dynamics underlining all of this.

Anonymous said...

Most of them working, and, I might add, the vast majority of them NEVER causing any of the problems caused by the minority (drunk driving, rape, murder, etc.) But you can always count on the Miglavians to post the latest, most terrible news about some godawful crime committed by an "illegal" (ignoring the hundreds committed the same day by white American citizens) as if that is somehow representative of the entire population.

You know what that is, folks? Bigotry. Racism. Figure the shit out, already. It comes in a variety of forms. And that's one of them. The fact that you've never burned a cross in a black man's yard doesn't exempt you from a legitimate charge of bigotry (And neither does marrying a Latina, Miglavs)

DAVE01 said...

ANON 10:36 AM
There was only about three million criminal aliens in the eighties and they were amenstied. Am I assuming that the nursery business is brand new (about twenty years old) in this area? If not, who did the work before the mexicans got here in the last twenty years?

DAVE01 said...

ANON 10:02 AM
The vast majority of them may not cause a problem, but a disproportionate percentage of them do. Criminal aliens account for 30% of our federal prison population. The wonderful mexicans are 17% of that population. Since the claim is that there are only twelve million here with a population of 300 million. My math tells me that they are four percent of the population causing 30 percent of the crimes.

If they are so law abiding, how come they are committing so many crimes? The reason these crimes are commented on is because they are PREVENTABLE. Maybe you don't believe in preventing crimes, diseases or anything else.

Your last paragraph is funny. You are desperate. Keep throwing the word racist and bigot around. The biggest cost is when their the children are in our schools. I have to ask why you hate American children so much? Are you a mexican, they are one of the most racist people on the planet.

Do you hate all children or just American children? Don't worry, they have help for you. A padded room and medication might be best for you since you have so much hatred inside you. You're probably a liberal and want to kill American children. Maybe you just hate white children. Maybe it's the Jews, everyone hates the Jews.

Booce dah Bahba said...

OY VEY!...Now hehr ve go mit da Jews. Vas iz los? Vhy are ve goink dehr? Gazine Gazoonk (if you seek, you'll find). Ve haf enuff tvouble already from de Schfartz und hiz goyim buddies. Letz shtoop the illegals und get vid o' dem.

DAVE01 said...

In other news, a mexican will die in a day or two for raping and murdering a little girl. For some reason the mexican government, the UN and obummer are upset about it because he spent almost his whole life here and finally figures out he's a mexican. I thought all you liberals wanted them as citizens. If they are to be treated as citizens, then they must suffer the consequences of American justice. Or Texas justice. There should be an express lane for getting rid of dirt bags like him. Adios.

Anonymous said...

Normally I agree with Daniel. I have to say though that Ano 10:36 makes some good points. Sure a lot of people SAY they will take work in crapy jobs but it just doesn't happen in real life. I have first hand seen many, many examples of people that would rather sit on there hands at home, collect unemployment, make their wives work or drain their family dry than actually work a difficult job. I still am against illegals, but we have to change the system and instill work ethic back in people. Society needs to change in the right direction as we kick all the illegals out of the country!

Anonymous said...

Maybe you just hate white children....

Dave, you are not simply idiotic. You predictably idiotic.

Anonymous said...

I feel no sympathy for businesses who have become dependent on illegal labor. Those that are so greedy and only care about lining their pockets do not care about the crippling social problems these illegals cause. Shame.

DAVE01 said...

ANON 2:14 PM
You are exactly one hundred percent right on the money on your post.

I would like to make a couple of points.
First, we can make the welfare people (the ones mentally and physically able to do so) go to work at the manual labor jobs. I'm talking about the canary jobs, the meat packing jobs, etc.

Second, I agree with you about the work ethic part. We need to put the children back in the fields at a young age and make them do manual labor jobs to teach them how to work.

The children these days can't get a jobs in the fields, the high schoolers can't get a jobs at McDonalds because the criminal aliens have stolen them.

We cold also stop allowing almost 1.5 million or so legal immigrants a year to come into our country. We are are keeping unemployment high by still allowing more people into our country.

Anonymous said...

Dave, your ignorance comes through loud and clear with this comment (amongst others):

"We cold also stop allowing almost 1.5 million or so legal immigrants a year to come into our country. We are are keeping unemployment high by still allowing more people into our country."

Even many people who are vehemently against illegal immigrants understand the good and proper role that legal immigrants play in our economy. Many of these legal immigrants fill professional roles (doctors, engineers, high tech workers, etc.) for which there is a shortage of qualified talent in the U.S. These legal immigrants are largely educated people who work in those sectors of the economy where the unemployment rate is less than 5%. So your contention that they are "taking jobs" is wholly without merit. As with much of what you write, it simply ain't true.

That you want even legal immigration to stop, lends a great deal of credibility to the suggestion that nothing more than pure, unapologetic bigotry drives the motives of more than a few people in the anti-illegal immigrant movement.

And yet, some of you seriously wonder how come you're often tagged as being racists and bigots? It's because you have plenty of people like Dave speaking on your behalf, who make it known in no uncertain terms that they are xenophobic, and simply do not like foreigners in this country as a matter of underlying principle.

Put another way, with people like Dave in your ranks, you are your own worst enemy. It's simply impossible for serious people to take you seriously when you have people like Dave proudly declaring that pure, unadulterated ignorance suffices as good enough motivation to speak out.

Anytime you're trying to convince people that you are "right" on an issue, the worst possible thing you can do is to have a certifiable moron speaking on your behalf. In this regard, Dave is one of those people that I'd bet even many in the anti-illegal alien movement wish would just shut-up.

Dave, I sometimes think that you're actually a "plant"...a pro-illegal alien person who is pretending to portray the very worst, most negative stereotypes of anti-illegal alien activists, in an attempt to discredit those activists. But then I realize that it isn't an act at're the real deal. Frankly, if I was a member of the anit-illegal alien movement, I would literally feel ill that people like you exist, and undermine the entire movement's crediblity. With "supporters" like you, that movement doesn't need any more enemies!

Not that I mind. I'm actually glad that there are people like you who are very willing and able to discredit the movement for people like me :) Thanks, Bubba!

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:59, blah, blah, blah. Keep it short if it is nonsensical and tiresome to read.