An immigration bill that would blaze a trail to legal status for hundreds of thousands of undocumented students went down in flames in the Senate on Saturday, delivering a critical blow to Democrats and Hispanic activists.
"Now, the next Congress can start to put unemployed Americans back to work by eliminating the ability for illegal aliens to hold jobs and by reducing the number of unnecessary permanent foreign workers we currently bring in legally every month," said Roy Beck, president and founder of NumbersUSA.
That's all folks. The amnesty pushers can't pass a bill to benefit the most "sympathetic" illegal aliens out of the whole bunch.
Marching in the street waving Mexican flags didn't work and now pretending that criminal aliens are all just a bunch of innocent kids who love community service didn't work.
We don't want amnesty, we want illegal aliens to go home!
53 comments:
I would note that the DREAM Act targeted people who were brought here as children (before the age of 16). To ascribe to them the same standard of personal responsibility as the adults who brought them here seems a little simplistic.
I'm also not convinced that it's better for the country, socially or economically, if 2.1 million young people are now forced to turn to illegal employment or outright criminal activity instead of college or military service. We should consider what effect it will have on personal, family and cultural values. If the ultimate goal is to minimize non-legal activity, I don't see how this gets us from here to there.
Finally, I would note that the bill was supported by a majority of American citizens, and by roughly the same proportion of senators. For a policy that is popular both with the government and the electorate to die in this fashion is a less than inspiring occasion for proponents of democracy.
blah blah blah...
Make our borders air tight and we can talk.
Pinkie French
Pinkie, I'm afraid it's a hopeless situation.
We could build a solid steel wall twenty feet thick, three hundred hards wide along the entire border and station a sentry along it every ten feet armed with a semi-automatic rifle, and you still would be unable of having an intelligent conversation with anybody about anything.
Nice to dream though, isn't it?
And thanks for clarifying once again that, in contrast to a sensible, articulate and polite comment by Kaelri with links to factual information that support his statement, the typical response by a Miglavian is, literally: "Blah blah blah."
Down in flames? Hardly. A majority actually voted to move it forward but the racist cowards were too scared to give it an up or down vote. No surprise there when it comes to typical member of the Republican Party. This is really nothing as both the Senate and House votes show that the anti-immigrant bigots have lost major ground. Several reps who at one time sided with white supremecysts and xenophobes are now voting with immigrants. That spells doom for racist groups who will be nonexistant within the next couple years. Mark my words. Where will racist tools like Pinkie French go then?
The time for enforcment is coming. As soon as the Social Security NO Match law is approved(See Rep Steve King) the problem will be solved, fence or no fence these people are going home.
P.S.
That includes illegals from all nations. The message is that the American people have had enough of this lawlessness(And bleeding hearts), It is time to protect our environment(from overpopulation) and time to protect the actual citizens of this nation.
LMAO! Calling Pinkie a bigot.
Laws are laws.
Illegal is illegal.
Grow up.
Again, no other nation in the world does this crap, so why the hell are we?
Hell the Mexicans shoot and kill people that come across their borders, south and north. So shut the fuck up. If you do not like the USA you are welcome to leave. In fact please break into Canada and see how you are treated.
If people want to immigrate here, they can do it legally or stay the out.
Pinkie French
If Steve King the racist does get whatever passed it won't get through the senate or through the president. The time of the bigot reps is over. Just look at Tancrepo, he was bounced out on his ear. King will be next.
Laws are laws. Illegal is illegal.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. All laws are equally good? All crimes are equally bad? I know you don't believe that, Pinkie. It was illegal to drink a glass of wine during Prohibition. It was illegal to hide Anne Frank behind the bookcase when the Nazis came.
And if the DREAM Act had passed yesterday - approved by a majority vote of both houses of Congress and signed by the president, as required by the Constitution of the United States of America - then it would be illegal, now, to deny 2.1 million Americans a path to citizenship. If you acted to obstruct such a policy, then you, too, would be "illegal," having disobeyed a legitimate federal law.
I must also repeat this: the people affected by the DREAM Act are those who came here before the age of 16. None of them were legal adults. Many of them were only 1 or 2 years old. It is inconceivable to hold them personally responsible for how they got here.
Unless you think they should have woken up one morning, and thought "hey, I'm an illegal immigrant! Oh well. I guess I should go to ICE and turn myself in. Sure, all my friends and family are here, I'm too poor to afford the journey, I'd have nowhere to stay in Mexico, and I don't even speak Spanish, so my chances of getting a house or a job are next to nothing. I'll become a homeless beggar, a burden on my community, fuelling the economic conditions that drove people like my parents to cross the border in the first place.
"I've never committed a crime in my life - at least, not after I turned eighteen months old. I love America, because I grew up here, I went to school here, I've made American friends, played American football, watched American television and read American newspapers. I just want what every kid wants: to be like everyone else. I would love to serve this country, the only country I've ever known, by fighting in the military, or to go to college and make a legitimate career for myself, join the workforce and pay taxes.
"But I'm an illegal alien. Daniel Miglavs thinks I'm no better than gangsters and drug dealers. And now that's exactly what I'm going to become."
Send the parents home and send their children with them. Why does it make sense for the child to stay here simply because they were too young to have made the decision to come here? Have you ever traveled overseas with your child? Should they have stayed in the foreign country you visited??? Then why should these foriegners stay here simply because they came here illegally? Send them all home as a family to their HOME. DUH!
If the corrupt Democrats pass any form of amnesty or dream act then there will be a mass exodous from Mexico (and other countries) to our country. We will literally be overrun. It will destroy our social infrastructure and our middle class. The Democrats want this because it will assure them control of the government but it will destroy America. The government intends to take everything you have in taxes to pay off their "voters". Do not let the criminals in congress do this to you.
"Why does it make sense for the child to stay here simply because they were too young to have made the decision to come here?"
Well... for all the reasons I just mentioned. If they're willing to work, pay, and even fight for the country, and they committed their last crime before potty training, why in the world would we turn them away? Aren't dedicated, hardworking people exactly who we want to attract? Should we not incentivize those qualities? And if we want to eliminate the disparate economic conditions in Central and South America that motivate people to come here illegally, what do you think is going to happen when we drop millions of people on the border with no money, no jobs, no homes, no connections, and little to no ability to speak the local language? In other words: do you want to reduce the number of criminals or do you want to make more of them?
"Have you ever traveled overseas with your child? Should they have stayed in the foreign country you visited???"
I've never left my kid in Paris for 25 years.
"If the corrupt Democrats pass any form of amnesty or dream act then there will be a mass exodous from Mexico (and other countries) to our country."
No, there won't. For several reasons. Firstly because the DREAM Act is not an amnesty bill. It's not like we're on the street corner handing out citizenship papers to any passerby. You'd have to be under 30 on the date the bill is passed, have lived here for 5 years or longer, and get an American GED or high school degree. And that's just to qualify. You're then required to complete two years of college or military service. So we're talking about, at minimum, a commitment of 7 years, just to apply for legal status. That's a tall order for anyone outside the specific group of young people whom DREAM targets.
"The government intends to take everything you have in taxes to pay off their 'voters'."
I don't understand this claim. The CBO scored the current version of the DREAM Act as cost-neutral. You may be referring to estimates of $6.2 bn per year, but those refer to an outdated version of the legislation. As it is, most of the cost burden is on the recipients. They're the ones who have to cover living expenses and pay tuition during the conditional period.
If anything, I have to imagine that deporting ten million illegal residents would be a more behemoth expense. The last U.S. Census cost $14.5 bn, and that was just to count everybody. Imagine how much it would take to forcibly remove 3-4% of the entire population. Imagine the invasion of homes and privacy required to find them and identify them, the displays of force against resisters civilian dissidents. Imagine the cost. Most of the commenters on this blog have expressed a fierce opposition to big government and big spending; consider, for a moment, how big and expensive the government would need to become in order to purify the nation in the way that you desire.
Kaelri, you seem to be a thoughtful, intelligent, reasonable, articulate, responsive, logical, well-informed and well-read human being.
What the hell are you doing in Miglavia?
Hunting season.
"There is no possible way for us to control this border, it's too long, we can't deport 10 million people, there's no way to find them all, it can't be done, don't even try, you're crazy to think we can, it's an insurmountable problem, we just need to accept it and move on..."
....this spoken by the same people who say....
"Of course we can control the climate of the entire planet, that's a no brainer. You are a stupid moron to assert that the climate changing is anything other than the result of Halliburton, BP, plastic bags, SUVs, LCD TVs, and conservatives. The climate on the Earth was always 70 and sunny until man came along, and with a little effort we can keep it that way forever"
I gotta question for the Miglavians ...
Let's say amnesty is granted, to everyone. It's law. Let's also say that limits on immigration to and from the U.S. are lifted, so there's really no need for even border patrol anymore. Let's say these laws are passed with bipartisan support from Dems and Republicans.
It's the law of the land.
What do you do?
Because if this is really about The Almighty Law, about worshipping at the Shrine of the Rule of Law, then you'll defend these laws, right? You'll have no objections, correct? You will demand these laws are enforced, and you'll rip into anyone who dares suggests changing them, right?
Where do you stand, Miglavians? If this is the new law of the land, do you defend these laws?
Firstly because the DREAM Act is not an amnesty bill.
Wrong terminology. Replace "is" with "was".
"Wrong terminology. Replace 'is' with 'was'."
That would be true if the bill had been defeated in an up-or-down vote. Senate Republicans did not allow that to happen (the cloture motion, which would have ended debate on the bill, was defeated). The bill therefore continues to exist as a House Resolution (HR 5281) until the end of the 111th Congress.
Any more nits you'd like to pick, Max?
These illlegal rats already rape our system for all they can get, had the law passed, there would be even more of an incentive to bring their children here. They would self- deport if we cut services like housing, food assistance, and not allow their children in our public schools. They come here to take, if the ability to suck our services dry is removed, problem solved. With them popping babies out like gumballs and us feeding/housing them, pretty soon there will be no system to help the neediest of true Americans. My heart cries for my poor country, what is happening to us? We need to hold the government accountable, my god they are even killing Americans along the border. I feel badly for the family of the recently murdered border patrol agent in Arizona. Enough is enough!!!!!!
Kaelri,
Yep things are illegal. Such as right now (or after the first of the year) ....it is illegal not to have health insurance.
Time to grow up. Life is not fair. That is just life. Just think.. not everyone can be Paris Hilton can they? She is part of a lucky sperm club, just as every American is part of another. Being born free is a gift and a blessing. However... that is also life...
Pinkie French
We don't want amnesty, we want illegal aliens to go home!
Yeah, if "we" is you and the half dozen Miglavians who come here each week to lick each other's balls. As the poll cited by Kaelri shows, a majority of Americans do want amnesty. Take a math class. Fifty-four percent is a majority.
Kaelri, do you think the family of a bank robber should be able to keep the loot? Please explain why or why not?
The children of the criminal aliens will benefit from their parents crimes. I will have to pay for their benefits and my grand children being white will be pushed to the end of the line. Somebody will be paying for them. I don't believe it when the CBO says it won't cost. Bullshit, they will be able to get some type of public support. They will get cheaper in state tuition which I am subsidizing. They will get a ten year work permit (putting more Americans out of work on unemployment and public assistance), they will have the ability to bring in unlimited relatives and the DHS secretary will be able to amnesty all the other criminal aliens. The deficit neutral is total bullshit.
Anon 5:34 PM, the dems brought this up in a last ditch effort. It will not be brought up in the new congress. Where were you November 2? Pelosi was fired. I hope your prediction of racism disappearing in the US will be proved to be true. We can get rid of all those racist equal opportunity policies that have companies and government organizations hiring on the basis of race.
One problem with your prediction, if we let in all these new immigrants in and not allow them to adapt to our culture, racism will go through the roof. There will probably be race wars. You might not have noticed but a lot of them are very racist. Let's look at mexico as an example. Check out their constitution, it has parts for mexicans and foreigners.
Anon 7:15 AM, it stated in the second or third paragraph that the Dream Act is not that well know. Why don't they do a poll where people are educated after the first set of questions and see what the results are. I bet the numbers would swing big time. That poll is based upon something that most people don't know shit about.
"Kaelri, do you think the family of a bank robber should be able to keep the loot? Please explain why or why not?"
It's not loot, Dave. It's lives. Instead of a bank vault, imagine some kid has been given a heart transplant, and the donor heart turns out to be stolen. Was a crime committed? Yes. Can you take the heart back? Not without killing the kid. And I'm afraid the reality is no less dramatic than the analogy. I repeat: you're talking about dumping several million people on the other side of the Rio Grande with no money, no jobs, no homes, no connections, and limited or nonexistent ability to speak Spanish. What do you think happens next?
You can't just evict 1 out of every 25 Americans without exacerbating every single problem you were trying to solve by doing it: the unemployment, the crime, the homelessness and vagrancy, the violence and ignorance, the cultural decay. It's like putting out a fire with napalm. So if you're going to oppose a measure as incremental as the DREAM Act, I think you're responsible for offering a realistic alternative.
"I don't believe it when the CBO says it won't cost. Bullshit, they will be able to get some type of public support. They will get cheaper in state tuition which I am subsidizing. They will get a ten year work permit (putting more Americans out of work on unemployment and public assistance), they will have the ability to bring in unlimited relatives and the DHS secretary will be able to amnesty all the other criminal aliens. The deficit neutral is total bullshit."
Dave. The act has nothing to do with public support. It has nothing to do with subsidized tuition. It has nothing to do with immigrating family members. It has nothing to do with amnesty.
I am disappointed that you wrote all of this - without a shred of evidence, causal logic, or any other indication that you are even aware of what the DREAM Act entails - and then, two paragraphs later, chastise others for having uninformed political opinions.
"Yep things are illegal. Such as right now (or after the first of the year) ....it is illegal not to have health insurance."
I'm not sure what relevance this has to the DREAM Act, but in any case, it's incorrect. Under the new health reform law, those who do not own insurance will pay a tax penalty of (ultimately) 2.5% of their income. The penalty is, of course, a fraction of what most families pay for health care, and it's expected that many will choose it. More importantly, however, that choice is legitimate. The law does not make it a crime to opt out of health care, any more than it's a crime to be unwed in the face of numerous tax-based marriage incentives. Now, if you opt out of health care and refuse to pay the penalty, you may be arrested for tax fraud. Don't say I didn't warn you.
"Time to grow up. Life is not fair. That is just life."
Well, that sounds like the basis of an outstanding legislative policy. I'll tell you what: let's forget the whole idea of a government that increases fairness. Forget about establishing justice: if your health insurance drops your coverage when you get cancer because you can't prove it's not a preexisting condition, they shouldn't be penalized. That's just life.
Provide for the common defense? To hell with that. We don't need some silly TSA thing to search airplane passengers for weapons. If that terrorist wants to blow up Detroit with his underwear, well, I guess Michigan's sperm just wasn't lucky enough. Grow up.
General welfare? I think not. No need to stimulate the economy when the banking system implodes. Sure, we'll be plunged headfirst into an epic depression that erodes the very foundations of the country. We don't deserve it. But you don't mind standing in line at a soup kitchen every day, do you, Pinkie? Because life isn't fair.
"These illlegal rats already rape our system for all they can get, had the law passed, there would be even more of an incentive to bring their children here. They would self- deport if we cut services like housing, food assistance, and not allow their children in our public schools. They come here to take, if the ability to suck our services dry is removed, problem solved. With them popping babies out like gumballs and us feeding/housing them, pretty soon there will be no system to help the neediest of true Americans. My heart cries for my poor country, what is happening to us?"
I'd like to remind you that we're discussing the United States of America, not the Weimar Republic.
(I apologize for the late reply; Blogger kept eating my post, I think because of the links.)
Kaelri, Yes it is loot. Free education among the many of freebies. That's about 13 grand a year per child. It sound better and safer than robbing a bank.
In your heart example. Imagine if that heart was meant for your child. One child lives, the other dies. What choice would you make? No matter what, you will be letting one child die. I remember a few years ago, some illegal alien woman brought her kid to the US and got a heart transplant for the child. This is exactly your example. Some American child died because of that theft. If it was my child or grand kids, I say they live.
We don't have an infinite amount of hearts, money, college spots, health care or anything else.
Of course the act has something to do with public support. As soon as they are legalized, they are in the system and can take from it. They are not supposed to take but they do. It has to do with in state tuition. In state tuition is subsidized by tax dollars.
I'm sure the children could go home with mom and dad. Our country can't be the social economic toilet for the rest of the world. This might force mexico and other third world shitholes to take care of their citizens.
When you say 1 out of 25 Americans, you have already implied they are Americans. They are not Americans. You are making a claim that they are 4% of our population. I bet the illegals are higher. I would bet more on about 10% of our population.
Are you telling me that unemployment and crime will increase if we tossed out 30 illegals? Exactly the opposite would happen.
You like facts, here are two: Illegals in our federal prison are almost 30% of the population. Mexicans are 17%. If all the illegal aliens were tossed tomorrow, we would notice an immediate drop in crimes, the schools would have more money to spend on citizens and legal immigrants allowing them to get a decent education. You like to use a child as an example, here's one for you, there would be less raped and dead American children. I could name a couple of American children that would still be alive if the illegals weren't here.
I have a realistic solution, E-verify for every government or business entity in this country. Match a name and SSN to go to school, to get public benefits, no more anchor babies. Stop all support of them and they will leave so fast it will make your head spin. They will go home and maybe force their government to take care of them.
If you reward criminal behavior, you will get more. The amnesty in 1986 is proof of that.
Merry Christmas to all.
That would be true if the bill had been defeated in an up-or-down vote. Senate Republicans did not allow that to happen (the cloture motion, which would have ended debate on the bill, was defeated). The bill therefore continues to exist as a House Resolution (HR 5281) until the end of the 111th Congress.
You think it's still alive? Obviously, I'm a bit more realistic.
I agree with you again Dave. The U.S. cannot be the worlds soup kitchen. Preventing illegals from obtaining ANY benefits our system provides is the first thing that should happen. This may not solve the entire problem, but I would be very effective in discouraging the level of illegals. Also, I believe many would self-deport when they can no longer suck on America's tit. They just devour state assistance and it seems they have also learned long ago that more babies equal more benefits. They breed like rats and we have to feed them. I do not feel sympathetic toward the children, their parents made a choice to include them in their illegal behavior. The real question is what kind of parent would do that to a child they love? They are well aware of the resentment towards them and yet they still choose to bring their children where they are not welcome. Here's an idea, stay in your own country and try to solve your social problems as a community. Nah, that's just too much work though, at least compared to lying on your back getting knocked up or waiting in a welfare line.
Why do you raise the "soup kitchen" argument when it comes to the penny ante shit "benefits" that "illegals" get and say absolutely nothing about the billions in tax windfalls and other benefits, big ones, enjoyed by Wall Street? Benefits at your expense?
Conservatives love capitalism. You're in love with capitalism, and not just any capitalism, but batshit crazy, unrestrained, all-powerful capitalism. Well Julie, here's some news for you regarding what you presumably want:
Capitalism no longer recognizes national boundaries. That day is as over as the day of the rotary telephone. And when capital can move freely around the world, workers follow. They must follow, if they're to survive. Human beings have, since there were human beings, traveled to where the work is, where the wealth is. Well, the wealth is here, and you can build umpteen different walls out of barbed wire and steel and broken glass and whatever the fuck, and you will NEVER stop it. Ever. If you want to stop human beings from trying to sneak into the USA, this is what you must do: You must kill every single human being on the entire planet who does not live here. All of them. Then you will stop illegal immigration. Then you can finally say, "We won." Then Miglavs can finally, at long last, rest.
If you can tolerate the biggest-ass income divide between rich and poor in the world that American capitalism produces, if you can bring yourself to say nothing about the manner in which Congress and the president coddles capitalism's generals at the expense of the troops, and if you can't bring yourself to raise a finger of protest about the wars waged so capitalism can march on its merry way (you think we'd be in Iraq if their main export was carrots?) then how about bucking your fool self up and getting over the fact that the person who hands you your egg McMuffin and coffee in the morning might not have a green card in his pocket?
ANON 6:33 PM
You state, "Well, the wealth is here, and you can build umpteen different walls out of barbed wire and steel and broken glass and whatever the fuck, and you will NEVER stop it."
You don't sound like an American. We are the country that has done amazing things in the last two centuries. You must be the new American and don't believe in the greatness of this country.
Bullshit, if we had the Israeli style fence, most of the border jumpers would be stopped. That's the reason we don't have the fence, it works. Talk to Israel.
All you need to do is make it very unfriendly for them to be here and where they can't get a job, get anchor baby status for their offspring and stop all benefits.
You might want a lesson in reality, capitalism built this great country. If you want to spread your wealth around, go ahead. A lot of people in third world countries don't have computers. Why are you on a computer when you should donate your computer equipment to someone else. Share the wealth. I bet you have an overabundance of money, food, clothing and space in your house. You should give it away immediately and share the wealth.
You sound like a commie. Communism is evil; therefore, you are evil.
By the way, I don't go to McDonald's anymore since a lot of the people don't speak English. I only eat fast food about twice a year. I don't go out because the criminal aliens have stolen the jobs from American teenagers and I won't support them. Of course you don't give a fuck about American teens who can't find jobs. You just want them to migrate and leave home.
Julie, I agree when you state what kind of parents are they. I don't these people as citizens when they endanger their children when there are so many safer legal ways to come to this country.
Kaelri, here is an article that proves my points. Boot the illegals and things get better, crime drops, the cost of government decreases and the schools are better for American citizens and legal immigrants.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/20101217/pl_dailycaller/virginiacountytrimsgovernmentcutstaxesbycrackingdownonillegalimmigration
Crime also drops the more you invest in education, but I've never heard a Miglavian argue for that.
Dave, if you're so goddamned stupid that the only explanation your pea-brain can come with to rationalize how someone might have an opinion you find objectionable that your response is, You sound like a commie. Communism is evil; therefore, you are evil, do yourself and everyone else a favor: Don't bother saying anything at all, because what you're basically doing, without being aware of it, is casting all 1) Men, 2) Republicans in a horrible, horrible light. Many people will not understand that you are the exception, not the rule. And believe me, exceptional stupidity is what we're talking about when we address the "argument" that: You sound like a commie. Communism is evil; therefore, you are evil. You're an idiot, Dave. You're the real deal. An idiot. Look it up. (In a dictionary).
Oh, sorry: In the "I" section.
Only a liberal progressive or a maggot democrat would claim lying, cheating and stealing are moral and just behaviors.
Pinkie French
Only a liberal progressive or a maggot democrat would claim lying, cheating and stealing are moral and just behaviors.
Pinkie French
No one is arguing that lying, cheating and stealing are moral and just behaviors. Who are you talking to?
Only a preening fascist Republican bitch is so stupid that she posts the same comment twice in a row.
This stopped being fun a few posts ago.
What, were you expecting the Miglavians to counter with some actual facts from the real world? Silly boy!
No, because of these:
"Only a preening fascist Republican bitch is so stupid."
"You're an idiot, Dave. You're the real deal. An idiot."
"You're in love with... batshit crazy, unrestrained, all-powerful capitalism."
If we don't try to be better than our enemies, we don't deserve to win.
I agree with Kaelri that the kids did not have a choice on coming here, however the problem that I have with the DREAM ACT is with the parents of the children that are granted legal status.
what happens when the parents get caught by ICE?
Families will still be separated because their children are now legal citizens of the US and can't follow their parents to their home country without a passport.
so do we next make an exception for the parents to keep families together? you know there will be an out cry for that one.
after all it is the parents fault for bringing the children here in the first place.
personally I think there should be a path for the kids but not under the current conditions that the DREAM ACT suggests however, any legalization requirement should include swearing allegiance to the US, not another country and learn English.
Kaelri,
The examples you listed are shocking, SHOCKING! Your side never acts this way. They're always so polite, always sticking to the issues, and they never commit any logical fallacies. So don't you think it's asking a bit much for your side to improve upon perfection?
BTW, thanks for taking off the mask and letting us know how you really view conservatives. Not that we didn't already know... Obama already let the cat out of the bag.
FP, I was actually quoting from posters on "my side." Please be courteous enough to read what I wrote before you criticize it, and I'll do the same for you.
Kaelri,
Thank you for putting some thought into your arguments and for not slandering the people who argue the opposite viewpoints. I don't generally agree with your arguments but at least they are well thought out. I don't drop in here very often but I would like to wish everyone a merry Christmas.
ANON 9:06 AM
Are you saying we should give more money for the criminal alien children. They already get enough of our money. In fact, they get more than American children get. Where is the fairness in that? If our children had more invested in their education, they might not commit so many crimes. Where is your concern for American children?
Robin, you are wrong when you say the parents will get caught by ICE. I believe they will get an amnesty. Remember we can't separate the families.
I don't agree with you when you say they should have a path to citizenship. Their crimes will pay off for the parents and their children. The families of bank robbers don't get to keep the loot, why should the criminal aliens.?
Merry Christmas to all.
Kaelri,
You must not understand sarcasm. Here it is in plainer terms:
The people you quoted from are a pretty accurate representation of the people you've taken up with. These are your people. Most of them act like preschoolers. Do you honestly expect better out of them when all they've got is an emotional, childish way of thinking?
Kaelri, the reason I use sarcasm is to illustrate the lack of courtesy we often deal with from your side of the political spectrum. I've decided that debate is futile, so I engage your side on its level, minus the name-calling. If I'm going to get a rise out of your people, I might as well have fun doing it. About the only thing your side understands is ridicule, so why not throw it back?
However, I will tip my hat toward you. You don't engage in hateful name-calling (English for ad hominem for our anonymous friends) and you're willing to call out your fellow travelers on their bad behavior. For that, kudos to you.
Also, did you read the last section of my post? To quote you:
"If we don't try to be better than our enemies..."
The last half of my post directly addressed this without sarcasm, Kaelri. Honestly, the fact that you on the American left view American conservatives as enemies is very troublesome. To your side, conservatives are nothing more than enemies, worthy only of destruction.
Don't believe me? Here's two words for you: Sarah Palin. You may not like her politics, and that's fine, but there is nothing this woman has done to warrant the absolute hate, vitriol, lies, intolerance, bigotry, discrimination, and misogyny she has received from your side of the aisle.
That's a far cry from mere disagreement. You'll try to understand terrorists, coddle criminals, and appease people who don't give a rat's rear end about human rights, but for some reason in your twisted way of thinking, conservatives constitute a much bigger threat than any of these groups and absolutely must be destroyed at all costs. You leftists have an inverted sense of good and evil. You who are anti-war started the biggest war of all: the war over Western culture. It's the only war you are willing to win.
Kaelri, this is a sad state of affairs. We in America are in civil war for the heart and soul of this nation. And for what? So you and your comrades can impose your failed vision of utopia upon people who don't want it. 40% of people in this country identify as conservative (as opposed to 20% liberal); therefore you're on a mission of conquest... you who are anti-imperialist. Your savior Obama has done nothing to unite this country and it was never his intention to do so. Quite the contrary, he views anyone who stands in his way as enemies to be punished, much as you do. You (and he) wouldn't have used the word otherwise.
Reluctantly, conservatives are increasingly beginning to view you the same way you view us. We have no other choice.
Enjoy your war, Kaelri.
FP,
On those occasions when I criticize those who are agreeing with me, your peers often initially assume that my comments were directed at them, failing to notice the origin of the quotes. Whether intentionally or not, your sarcastic diatribe perfectly echoed dozens of such comments made on this blog over the last five years, and in the absence of a less rhetorically opaque contribution, I assumed you were doing the same thing.
As for the second half: if I understand correctly, your outrage seems to hinge on a single word: "enemy." I suppose "adversary" or "opponent" may have been a less inflammatory choice of words. Mea culpa.
You go on, however, to attribute me with beliefs, motives and even morals which have no basis in anything I've said or written on this blog or anywhere else. I feel strange defending myself from your charges, because I don't think they were directed at me, per se. You are not speaking to me as an individual, but as a liberal -- and not as a real, three-dimensional human being with liberal political opinions, but as a monster-under-the-bed caricature. You know nothing about me, and vice versa. Yet you believe I want to destroy you. I only hope the reverse is not true.
You see, eliminationism -- the idea that one's political enemies must be destroyed -- is exactly what I've been arguing against in this thread. You speak of liberals the way Daniel Miglavs speaks of illegal immigrants: as a group, united and homogeneous. They broke the law when they crossed the border, and on that basis, they are referred to here as criminals, the moral equivalent of Capone or Madoff. I believe this approach, as I said in my first comment here, is simplistic. And I can see the same dynamic at work in your remarks. You noted, accurately, that 21% of this country identifies itself as liberal. I believe that to exclude 65 million people from your definition of "real America," as is done by Sarah Palin (and others who came long before her), is destructive. I believe that for an entire political party to withdraw into a self-affirming echo chamber is destructive.
That's why I still come to this blog after five years: I believe a sincere, honest dialogue between ideological opposites is not only valuable, but crucial. As a liberal, I reject the idea that we should, or even can, live in different worlds. I refuse to believe that America can no longer find ways to stand together. And, while you probably think I'm either a liar or a fool for this, I voted for Barack Obama for exactly those reasons. And despite my disagreements with him and disappointments with his presidency thus far, I remain proud to have done so. For these, my actual beliefs, I see no need to apologize.
But I am sorry that you are committed to seeing this as a war. Being a liberal does not define me, and I hope being a conservative doesn't define you. You are my enemy, insofar as you support an array of social, economic and foreign policies which I find misguided, immoral and destructive. But my objective is not to destroy you. It is simply to change your mind.
Anon 6:33, I do not eat fast food, therefore I need not worry about an illegal handing me a greasy breakfast sandwich in the morning. Also, resorting to profanity does not serve you well in getting your point across. I suggest that when you find yourself getting emotional on this oftentimes sensitive topic, you take a break and return to typing with respect for others.
FP, the problem is this: It means nothing to talk about "conservatives" in this country as if they were some sort of monolithic force. My father is a war veteran, a conservative, a Republican, as are many of my uncles, I have friends who consider themselves conservatives, are registered Republican, put up yard signs for Republicans in their yards, etc. And they all think that "Miglavians" are insane. And yes, that if they have enough political power, that they are literally dangerous, that they represent a threat to democracy, or what's left of it, in this country. They may be to the "left" of far-right Republicans and they may be liberal compared to them, but they are not "liberals," and they are certainly not "the American left."
Daniel and the few regulars who are in ideological solidarity with him are not average Republicans. They are on the far right of the spectrum. That isn't to say there aren't others who aren't even more conservative than they are, but there are many who are considerably less conservative than they are.
Dave01
I will agree with you that the parents WILL get caught because their children will bring them into the spotlight and you are correct that the families will probably get amnesty. Like you said, we can't separate the families
The children themselves however are not the criminals because they had no choice in crossing international borders, that was their parents doing.
If any American would of done this to their child, DHS without blinking an eye would've taken the child away from the parents and charge the parents with child abuse and possibly jail time for the parents for placing a child into this situation.
But that doesn't happen because illegal aliens are untouchable in this society.
Robin, I like what you said about DHS. The children should be seized because the parents put them in danger. I bet the criminal aliens would split if they knew they would lose their children. That should be added to the list of ways to get rid of the criminal aliens.
Kaelri, 503 pm post....
"It stopped being fun... "
Because this is not a Game.
It is not fun for any of us ....either.
however it is very real.
Life is forkeeps.
Pinkie French
Just a bit of understatement, Pinkie. Deal with it.
I don't believe your stupid way to see the life of humans, if you believe in Jesus they are your brothers. o what
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