Sunday, March 21, 2010

I'm thinking about dropping my health insurance

The federal government is out of control. They do not have constitutional authority to require all Americans to buy a product/service.


LW said...

Daniel, if you drop your health insurance, I guess I won't rest until you're treated like the criminal that you are.

Anonymous said...

The federal government forcing people to buy health insurance will lead to socialized medicine.

Hey LW, better hope Daniel's not a hypochondriac. You'll be paying for it.

Anonymous said...

The US gov't just gave the entire country a complete rectal exam - too bad it wasn't really free.

Anonymous said...

Hey, LW, fuck you, you communist mother fucker.

Anonymous said...

"Hey, LW, fuck you, you communist mother fucker."


LW said...

Gosh Anon, I'm so sorry you couldn't come up with an intelligent response to my post. Hope that made you feel better, though. Take care.

Anonymous said...

wow. LW, I bet you are excited to get that rectail from that IRS agent that they just funded in this bill...

gives a new meaning to the term bend over now? Doesnt it?


17,000 IRS agents are ... Democrates feel..this is the best way to solve health care.

Yep. Sounds about right...for the idiots in the valley to go along with.

Pinkie, and yes she is pissed this morning.

Anonymous said...

oh, and they ended tricare for the Military...

typical brain dead libs.

smoke some more of your weed idiots.

Kaelri said...

"The federal government is out of control. They do not have constitutional authority to require all Americans to buy a product/service."

Yes, they do.

(Forgive the source; I know you're not fans of the Huffington Post around here. But the key section is this: "Congress has always been able to impose a regulatory tax on an activity if it possesses the power to regulate the activity directly. And Congress may regulate health care insurance directly under its commerce clause power... Under the commerce clause, Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce, and the health care insurance industry clearly falls within the Supreme Court's understanding of interstate commerce.")

"oh, and they ended tricare for the Military..."

No, they didn't.

Kaelri said...

Pardon the double-post, but here are a few additional sources for those who are concerned about the constitutionality of HCR:

New England Journal of Medicine
Constitutional Law Prof Blog
Baucus's Statement

Anonymous said...

Careful Kaelri, you're confusing the Miglavians with facts. No more beer summits for you!

LW said...

FYI, this is a no-win situation, Kaelri, you're in Miglavia. The best you can hope for is that a Miglavian will deny your facts because they heard a FOX "News" report to the contrary that quoted Ann Coulter as saying that she heard it from Dick Cheney on the Sean Hannity show. The worst you'll get is that a Miglavian will accuse you of being a rectal-exam-loving Communist.

Welcome to Miglavia.

DAVE01 said...

Kaelri, we are being forced under threat of law to purchase a product or service. People always say I have to have auto insurance; but, I don't have to have a car. They will put people in prison for years for not purchasing a product or service. This sounds like what our British masters over two hundred years ago would have done. Our country was never meant to have a government mandate the SUBJECTS purchase a product or service.

They can tax and regulate interstate commerce but not force a person to buy something they don't want. Now the IRS will come to your home and put you in prison if you don't buy a product or service.

Next Obama will amnesty the criminal aliens. They will be allowed to bring in relatives. Within a few years there will be probably fifty more million new citizens. Remember most of them are poor uneducated and have poor and uneducated relatives. This will bankrupt our country. No country can afford massive immigration of poor and uneducated. A lot of these new immigrants will have a lot of health problems which will bankrupt our new health care. Unemployment will increase. Look at all the states and communities which are having big money problems right now. Hospitals will start closing at an accelerated rate, medical doctors will start quitting and I will bet our average life expectancy will start decreasing for the first time

Then finally, the democrats will force the science fiction cap and trade on us which will kill a lot of our industries because our country relies upon plentiful cheap sources of power.

Gotta love that hope and change. Obama and the democrats change the course of our country in a few years from the shining city on the hill to the third world welfare country. I hope the rest of the planet will help once in a while when we need some handout or some disaster relief. We will be too broke to help ourselves.

The number of the takers will outnumber the number of the givers. Adios American, hello third world hellhole.

LW said...

Well, I disagree with much of your post, Dave, but I salute you for responding to Kaelri without using the words "rectal exam," "communist" or "motherfucker."

Anonymous said...

I'm thinking of smoking weed. The federal government is out of control. They do not have constitutional authority to prohibit Americans from smoking weed.

Care to comment, Miglavs?

[Actually, I've never smoked weed, never will. I'm just trying to make a point. Oh, wait. I'm in Miglavia ... never mind.]

Kaelri said...

"Now the IRS will come to your home and put you in prison if you don't buy a product or service."

That's not true. Given the rhetoric that's been put out about this bill, I'm not surprised that you believe it, but that's not how this works. If you choose not to buy insurance, you will be subject to an additional income tax. You will not be arrested, you will not be imprisoned, and you will not receive a criminal record. You'll just pay the tax. They're actually expecting a lot of people to take this option; it's part of the calculus by which the CBO predicts these reforms to start reducing the deficit by the end of the decade.

I won't respond to the immigration issue in too much detail; I'm sure the time will come for that. I'll just remind you that this act explicitly excludes non-citizens from its benefits, and that President Obama has consistently supported a policy that will force illegal immigrants to pay a fine, learn to speak English with basic proficiency, and seek citizenship by a legitimate process. They're not going to grant 12 million people automatic citizenship with the stroke of a pen. So you can relax.

As for your energy concerns, I will simply suggest that if anyone wants to see the United States of America become a third-world country, one of the best things they can do is make sure that the polar ice caps continue to melt at their present rates.

Anonymous said...

"You will not be arrested, you will not be imprisoned, and you will not receive a criminal record. You'll just pay the tax."

oh wait.

Wesley Snipes...arrested and prision for not paying taxes. This well before the new federal IRS agents are employeed...mmm... Do you really trust
Barrack Obama that much?

There are many others you naive little lemming. Many Many Many others. Just not democrates like Tim Geitner or Charley Rangel, because on the Animal Farm Pelosi and the other pigs are running have special rules ..some pigs are more equal then others...


Kaelri said...

Well, er, if you refuse to get insurance *or* pay the tax, that's a different story. If you intend to commit tax fraud, I can't help you.

Anonymous said...

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Anonymous said...

You should. Do it today!

DAVE01 said...

LW, I resemble that motherfucker remark. In fact, I fucked my girlfriend this morning at 5:30 am and she is a mother. I don't need to insult liberals, they can do it by themselves with their logic. They are illogical.

Kaelri, you are wrong. If you don't pay the health care fee (tax) you can go to jail eventually. Remember Al Capone? I laugh when I see reduce the deficit part. Adding ten percent more people to the health care cost will not reduce the deficit. Doctors are already not taking additional medicaid and medicare people. Are you now going to force doctors to take these patients? Why would a doctor take all those years of medical school and residency and incur huge financial costs to take the additional minimum wage patients?

You may say this act explicitly excludes the criminal aliens. That may be true until they are amnestied for the felonies they have committed. Then they will receive citizenship and presto, they get health care at our cost. They will also bring in mucho relatives. Kaelri, the real number is closer to forty million criminal aliens. Then they each get to bring in a few relatives and presto, you have an additional fifty to one hundred million new citizens who will all get the bennies of being an "American".

Come on remember your history. Look at Rome, they let the barbarians (immigrants) in and they went down the tubes. I love it when people tell other people to relax. That is condescending don't you think. I personally don't care. I bet you wish our founding fathers would have just relaxed. Everything would have been much better. People who are relaxing are being taken care of by other people. I bet you are relaxing. I'm glad you know best. How old are you by the way? Have you ever served your country in the military? Has someone footed the bill for you most of your life? I'm just curious.

I just hit the link on your name. It is obvious because of you attitude you are young and sucking off someone else's work. What is your major?

You tell me to relax while my grand children are going to inherit a third world hell hole. Do you tell the parents of children who were raped and murdered by criminal aliens to relax? There are ones everyday. Why don't you find some local ones and just tell them to relax. I would love to see their response. Do you tell all victims of crimes to relax?

Since you are in college, I have a reality test for you. Why don't you go someplace and get severely assaulted and then I can tell you to relax and you can tell me what you feel when I tell you that.

I love the part of the polar ice caps melting. You have to stop listening to Al Gore. I can see you have neglected any science in your education. You should stop relaxing and start taking real classes at college. On second thought, you don't have the drive to take science classes, you would have to stop relaxing and start working.

I think you should put off your education until the criminal aliens are amnestied and then you can compete with them and their families for college. I have a feeling you would then be crying about you couldn't get into college because all those criminal aliens would have taken all the openings.

You are in for a rude awakening soon. Good luck finding a job. Ha Ha. Be careful what you wish for.

DAVE01 said...

Kaelri, You are also deficient in math and economics.

I have to know what you are taking. What college are you going to?

LW said...

Dave, thanks for the update on your sex life. Not really relevant to anything in particular here, but I'm sure I speak for all when I say that I admire the adolescent-style attempt at masculine bravado and feigned sexual prowess. However, I'm going to withdraw my earlier "salute" to you, trying to acknowledge what appeared to me an honest attempt to engage in a serious discussion without resorting to gutter language and insults. You had me fooled there for a while, but in the end, you reveal your true, knuckle-dragging colors.

Anonymous said...


DAVE01 said...

LW, how can you have a serious discussion about this health care when it was completely conducted behind closed doors? We may never know how much the votes cost us.

How can you have a serious discussion with somebody like Kaelri who does not have the math or economic background? There is no discussion allowed under this government besides what they allow. That is totalitarianism. That is okay, there will be a lot of new faces next year. They will not be Democrats.

Anonymous said...

My big question is 'why would anyone, anywhere, decide to pay for health insurance?'. Since there is no limit on preconditions, why wouldn't I just wait until I get cancer or break my leg or whatever, and just apply for insurance then? I can pay the measly $750 yearly fine in the meantime.

How in the world is this NOT going to bankrupt the insurance companies? I know some will say 'yeah, too bad for them' but then what?

It seems pretty clear this is a trojan horse on the way to single payer, which will mean greatly increased taxes for everyone - they can only soak 'the rich' to a point.

DAVE01 said...

LW, read this. It's about the US being insolvent. Not later, but this year. We are going the way of Greece and nobody will bail us out. The only way will be to sell all of our assets. Gold and oil. They are not enough. Let me know what you think about this article:,-US-public-debt-could-reach-end-game-17781.html

Anonymous said...

Hey, Kaelri, regulating insurance industries is quite distinguishable from forcing individuals to buy something under threat of criminal sanction by the government. While I appreciate your honest and civil attempt to bring up the issue here, the substance of the matter you cite to is easily a stretch.

Now, what I want to know is if you really think the feds ought to be in the business of forcing anyone under theat of law to buy something, even when they don't want it or need it? This isn't like applying to build a house or getting a permit to run a business in town. This is an IRS agent banging on your door and demanding money simply because you happen to be alive? Are you ok with that? And if you are, just know that one day the government you love now will turn on you and come after you. What then? More rioting in the streets?

"If you choose not to buy insurance, you will be subject to an additional income tax. You will not be arrested, you will not be imprisoned, and you will not receive a criminal record. You'll just pay the tax. They're actually expecting a lot of people to take this option;"

And what happens if you don't pay the tax? You obviously don't know much about the remedies at the disposal of the IRS to compel payment, which includes the use of criminal complaint, tax lien, garnishment, and even imprisonment. How can you be so blind to this?

"Well, er, if you refuse to get insurance *or* pay the tax, that's a different story. If you intend to commit tax fraud, I can't help you." So, not having health insurance is now a "tax fraud"? Of course you can't help. You are out of answers. The reality is that the person will have potentially gone to jail because he/she did not have health insurance. Is that really the result you want? If Bush and a Repbulican Congress pulled this, you all would be breaking and burning stuff in the streets.

LW, you started it with your opening post, so get off your high horse.

"It seems pretty clear this is a trojan horse on the way to single payer, which will mean greatly increased taxes for everyone - they can only soak 'the rich' to a point."

I agree. I think the Socialists easily have a plan B for when this frankenstein of a system fails. In fact, they just see this as a transition to a more comprehensive system, not unlike Canada. Not my words. That was Obama circa 2007.

Obviously, we need to make sure that the Socialist/Progressive party never has a super-majority in Congress again, at the very least.

LW said...

Okay, you're right. I started off on this thread, so I'll elaborate. First off, no one has even made a half-assed attempt to deal with the point of my first comment, which was to draw attention to the hypocritical nature of Miglavs' statement: Here we have a guy who has taken it upon himself to beat the drum daily for the rule of law, enforce the law, punish the lawbreakers, etc. And now he turns around and with apparently no irony whatsoever announces that "I'm thinking about [breaking the law]." No one has bothered to address this. It's the elephant in the living room, as far as I'm concerned, and in Miglavs case, we're talking about a big fat-assed smelly Republican elephant.

MAX Redline said...

Kael 733:

"Congress has always been able to impose a regulatory tax on an activity if it possesses the power to regulate the activity directly. And Congress may regulate health care insurance directly under its commerce clause power... Under the commerce clause, Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce, and the health care insurance industry clearly falls within the Supreme Court's understanding of interstate commerce.")

I'm no lawyer, but neither are you, nor is the author of the Huffington piece. State AGs are filing suit as I type; so perhaps it's best to leave it up to actual lawyers and judges to decide.

That said, it is very clear that (1) Democrats have gone against the will of a large majority of Americans whom they were elected to represent.

(2) Historically, other entitlement programs, such as So-So Security and Medicare, enjoyed the support of both major parties. Never before has a program of this magnitude been unilaterally imposed.

(3) Your argument involving the Commerce clause, taken from your Huffington article, seems disingenuous: the same could be said for auto insurance, which feds have no current interest in regulating. The larger issue, a requirement from the federal government that people must purchase a specific product, seems ripe for overturning at the judicial branch.

The federal government instituted spectrum revisions, but did not mandate that anybody purchase a digital television or radio.

No governmental agency requires you to purchase auto insurance - nor, for that matter, to license your vehicle - unless you choose to drive a vehicle that you freely chose to purchase upon any surface other than that which you likewise own. If I own a ranch, and if I purchase a vehicle to drive on that ranch, there is no requirement by any agency for me to also purchase insurance and a license.

I only have to comply with these rules if I choose to drive onto public roadways. Even then, there is no requirement in most states to purchase insurance - if you can demonstrate sufficient assets to pay for catastrophic damage, should any occur. Bill Gates is not required by any mandate to purchase vehicle insurance - but he is required by this mandate to purchase health insurance.

It's really silly to try to hide behind the concept that "well, you don't have to buy it, but if you don't you have to pay a fine/tax". No, sorry - that doesn't fly. Democrats are attempting to force you to buy a product, and if you balk, they'll whack you.

This is unprecedented in our history. Far from a Democratic victory for all Americans, they have succeeded only in opening a can of worms that will take years to sort through. And for the most part, millions more of your tax dollars will be spent by federal and state agencies as the cases wind their way through the judicial system.

What an incredible waste of time and money; truly The Bonfire of the Vanities.

Anonymous said...

Oh come off it, Miglavians. Is there any among you bitching about this who don't already have health insurance anyway? Most sensible people do, and I realize that's giving you probably more credit than you deserve, but .. anyway.

Anonymous said...


Oh yes, Pinkie French has a health savings account. Not insurance in the formal sense. Some catastrophic ...but very high deductable. I am fine with this. I negotiate with my doctors. I speak to billing and tell them. I am going to pay cash when I leave... I always get a 50% rate reduction. They don't have to bill and wait and get their money right up front. We are both happy. I have had surgeries, minor procedures and my annuals. It works, but then I am not lazy and do not feel the need to suck of others for my care. I plan. Now the democrats are punishing me...because I don't want to get in their damn bucket!

Pinkie French,

and I am still as pissed off now as I was this morning.

Kaelri said...

Oh dear. That's a lot to respond to. Can I have 24 hours?

Anonymous said...

What does tjhat have to do with anything,
7:18? I have a job now, but who knows? You gonna subsidize me if I get laid off and can't buy insurance? Well, I don't want a stinkin' subsidy. Instead of sukin' on the gubment's teet, I'll take care of myself and find a job somewhere, even if I have to leave the state. If I am looking for charity, I'll go to my church, not da gubment.

You lefties just need to come to grip with the fact that something in your miserable lives is compelling you to want to dump your misery onto and control others. Ain't happenin'!

Anonymous said...

Well, it's all settled now anyway. The bill has been signed into law. It's the law. And Daniel is Defender #1 of the law. Laws must be obeyed and enforced. I'm sure Daniel will now fall into line and stand behind the law. Because it's the law. And anyone who breaks the law should be treated like the criminals they are, right, Miglavs?

Anonymous said...

1059, okay, time for you to sit down wait for your next instructions for Obama.

We will do the heavy lifting. YOU can just wait for your instructions.

This bill will be repealed or at least parts of it will be, and dems will cause a lot of unemployment with their own come Nov.

WE the people are the government. We the people will choose our fate. We the people are the bosses of congress, not the other way around.

Being born free sometimes means more to some then others. I will not give up my freedoms to the likes of what the Dems are demanding.

dont worry 1059, someone will be there to do the heavy lifting, just remember to thank them for the efforts in saving your ass at the same time.

Anonymous said...


The reason nobody responded to your "point" is that it is a red herring. The far bigger donkey in the room is this health care monstrosity the Democrats (in name only; they are really communists) decided to unleash upon this nation against everybody's better judgment.

Yet you decide to sanctimoniously pick on Daniel for his "hypocrisy". News flash, LW: Nobody cares. You think Daniel's the hypocrite? What about Congress and Obama? What they did was not only unconstitutional, but the way they went about it most likely involved committing felonies. LW, these are the people who write and execute the laws of this country. Yet they are the very ones breaking the law, trampling the Constitution (let alone the oath they swore to uphold it), and giving the finger to the very people they are supposed to represent. You don't see the hypocrisy in that? Or is it that all the shenanigans involved don't bother you in the least?

So if you'll excuse me and everyone else who previously didn't take the time to gratify your ego by responding to the "point" of your small, irrelevant, poor excuse of a comment, we have bigger fish to fry.

LW said...

... you decide to sanctimoniously pick on Daniel for his "hypocrisy". News flash, LW: Nobody cares.

Obviously. Which, once again, is my point. Thanks for helping me make it.

Doctor Lucius said...

I've been watching politics a lot of years, and it seems to me that one annoying trait liberals and conservatives both have is triumphantly declaring with absolute certainty, as if theirs is the final word on the subject, that any political action by a politician, political party or governmental administration they happen to dislike is "unconstitutional" or a violation of their "rights."

Libs do it. Right-wingers do it.
And most of the time, they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

And in this case, I suspect a good measure of hypocrisy (funny how that keeps coming up here)is involved. Let me ask you, 5:50, were you screaming about violations of the constitution and "felonies" eight years ago when Dick Cheney was drafting energy policy in secret, refusing to even say who he was meeting with? Did you have anything to say about "the way they went about it"?

Didn't think so.

Anonymous said...

LW, did you even bother to read the rest of my post? You already made your small, little point, several times over. You added absolutely nothing to the conversation with your last post. You want substantive responses? Try giving them first.

Doctor Lucius, your boilerplate leftist drivel about whatever it is Bush/Cheney did, as a response to my post, isn't going to fly. Number one: Bush and Cheney are no longer in office. Obama and Biden are. Number two: Calling someone a hypocrite is not a refutation of that person's argument. (This goes for you too, LW.) You do understand what a logical fallacy is, don't you? Of course, neither one of you wanted to even touch my point regarding the much larger hypocrisy of a current law-making entity breaking the law. What does it matter to you if Daniel or I are hypocrites? Are you telling me that two alleged hypocrites you found on the internet are of much more importance than the 200+ hypocrites in Congress exempting themselves from the laws they impose on the rest of us? You think that doesn't affect you? You're so eager to make leaps and point out the hypocrisy of conservatives, yet you can't be bothered to at least acknowledge the blatant hypocrisy and lies coming out of the Obama administration? You know, the one that's currently in power?

In case you haven't noticed, we are talking about the government takeover of healthcare. That is one-sixth of this nation's entire economy. Do you know how large the United States economy is? In 2009, it was almost 14 trillion dollars. Do you know what the federal budget was in 2009? 2.9 trillion. Do you know what 1/6 of 14 trillion is? 2.33 trillion. That is close to eighty percent of what the entire federal budget was for 2009. What Obama and congress have just done is unprecedented in the history of this nation, no matter how you slice it. Anything any previous administration has done is small potatoes in comparison to this monster.

And all you want to do is blather about some conservative's alleged minor shortcomings? Go ahead. Rearrange the deck chairs. After all, what does it matter to you that the ship just struck an iceberg and is sinking?

Anonymous said...

well, there is a 10% tanning tax that began the second Obama signed this piece of crap bill.


and before you say...good tanning is bad for you, ...think about it, this is stage one of CONTROLLING your life.

Pinkie French

Anonymous said...

Kaelri, were you going to respond? Or did you decide to not waste your time with these guys? Wouldn't blame you if it's the latter, but I was curious to see what you found out ... you seem to be a pretty rational, level-headed type.

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