Thursday, December 13, 2007

In the name of fairness...

Attention illegal drug users:

Does your illegal activity prevent you from working? Unable to pass a pre-employment drug screen? Then you may qualify for Portland's "Rent for Criminals" program! Taxpayers will foot the bill for your daily living expenses!

Rent for Criminals:

No longer will your illegal choices have consequences!

It's time for folks who are eligible to work to step up to the plate and help these folks out!

Remember: you are the victim here!

So if you are a lawbreaker who is unable to work due to your illegal activity please apply for this exciting new taxpayer funded program at Erik Sten's office.

47 comments:

Maliengus said...

Like it or not, Stein does have a point. Many children of these illegal aliens ARE citizens of the U.S. You may not like that fact, but until their is a constitutional amendment that says otherwise, if you're born here, you are a citizen. If their parents are incarcerated or homeless they end up in the state system, which will cost taxpayers FAR more. Either way you slice it, someone pays.

Until the criminal act of hiring illegals becomes too risky to do, meaning stiffer penalties, employers will continue to hire them to satisfy our "shop till you drop" greed-fueld clamoring for cheap goods.

Also, employers should be made to pay for the costs associated with processing illegal aliens for their return home: housing, childcare, the plane ticket back...you name it. Make the criminals who hire them in the first place PAY for their folly.

I've been saying this for a few years on this blog. The "ground zero" criminals are the crooks who started this mess in the first place and for a long, long time Daniel gave them a free pass. It's a waste of time to focus on anyone else. Dry up the jobs and the illegals go home all by themselves.

Daniels manifesto should not read "I will not rest until every illegal alien is treated like the criminal they are."

It should read: "I will not rest until every employer who hires illegal aliens is fined to kingdom comes or is sitting in jail."

That, my friends, is your solution, not whining about "Press 1 for English."

Anonymous said...

For your Yuletide diversion, may I present....

THE TWELVE S & M DAYS OF XXX-MAS, brought to you by "Eli and the Anons"

On the first day of Christmas
R Huse gave to me,
one stainless steel ass speculum.

Tune in tomorrow for the next installment of....

THE TWELVE S & M DAYS OF XXX-MAS...

Anonymous Heironymous

Anonymous said...

Based on DHS's thoughts on Baby Gabe, those persons with Mexican blood belong in Mexico.

Anonymous said...

How about people with "Jap" blood, or "Pollock" blood or "Kraut" blood?

Moondoggie said...

Moreover, OAF-er's waste their time picketing at misc. sites where "Mexicans" gather for jobs, services, etc...

They should be picketing in front of businesses known to employ illegals.

I think the only reason they don't focus like a laser on the employers is because they know that if they do, chances are they will find the laser pointing in the direction of associates, friends, and neighbors...in other words, a huge group of people that aren't "Mexican."

In light of that, what do want to bet they'll just stick to bashing Mexicans?

Stevie said...

About this whole illegal immigration fuss, maliengus was correct above when he said the following:

“Until the criminal act of hiring illegals becomes too risky to do, meaning stiffer penalties, employers will continue to hire them to satisfy our "shop till you drop" greed-fueld clamoring for cheap goods.”

While opponents of illegal immigration often like to frame the issue in terms of morality and/or nationalism, in fact, it is almost entirely an economic issue. There is available work in America, and companies are willing to hire anyone available to do that work. And so, illegal immigrants are simply behaving in a manner that any economist would predict: they are moving to a location (the U.S.) where there is work. In other words, illegal aliens are simply behaving the way any rational economic actor would behave.

And why is that work available in the first place? Because Americans demand cheap prices! The success of Wal-Mart is proof of that, as is the fact that when grocery (particular produce) prices go up, people whine about it as if they are somehow entitled to ridiculously low prices on the food grown in America. As consumers we DEMAND low prices in America, so it is only natural that business responds to that demand by seeking out the cheapest labor it can find. In this sense, illegal immigration is the ultimate example of free market economics.

In essence, to fix the immigration “problem”, you don’t need to change the behavior of illegal immigrants. You need to change the behavior of American consumers who allow and encourage such illegal immigration vis-à-vis their consumption habits. Good luck with that one. The phrase “spitting in the wind” comes to mind when I think of Americans’ willingness to pay more for their food in an effort to reduce illegal immigration.

And BTW, I think it’s a real hoot when right-wingers try to pin the illegal immigration “problem” on liberals. Fact of the matter is, the biggest – or at least the most powerful - supporter of illegal immigration in this country is big business. And since the GOP is more closely aligned with big business, you should be faulting them as much as, if not more, than any Democrat when it comes to this issue. Just look at the Bush Administration to see what I’m talking about. Has there been an administration more friendly to illegal immigrants than the Bush Administration??? I think not.

As long as big business wants cheap labor, and as long as American consumers demand low prices, illegal immigration isn’t going to go away. The laws of economics tell us so.

Kit said...

When I applied for a job I had to show proof of citizenship and give a valid SS number. How come illegal aliens get a pass? Baby Gabe is a legal citizen and our government tried to deport him! They just pander to the illegals
who can probably vote in Oregon

Kit said...

They were arrested last June, why are they still here? They could have walked back to Mexico in the past 6 months.

R Huse said...

>Because Americans demand cheap prices! The success of Wal-Mart is proof of that, as is the fact that when grocery (particular produce) prices go up, people whine about it as if they are somehow entitled to ridiculously low prices on the food grown in America.

This is true, but it is hardly an American trait. One thing is true of all, be they black, white, liberal, conservative, leftist or capitalist, everyone is conservative in the field of their own endevour. If one doubts this, one must ask, when was the last time the main concern in buying a stereo or cup of coffee was that the person behind the counter was getting paid union scale? Odds are one bought the highest quality product, at the lowest price, with no concern whatsoever as to the pay of the people involved in its production.

As an aside, there is a certain belief in America that Europeans are fine with high tax rates, and gladly pay them. In the minds of some, this bespeaks a higher, more civic minded morality. I can assure you this is not the case. My company ships overseas to Europe and elsewhere on a daily basis. In accordance with international law we have to declare the true value of every item in a shipment which we do on the customs forms. On roughly 25% of the orders we get complaints from those who feel we should have understated the value so that they could avoid paying those taxes. Thus proving the one historical constant - everyone is conservative in the field of their own endevour.

If you want to put business on the hook for hiring illegals, fine, but give them a ready means of checking. Seems to work for gun purchases.

Moondoggie said...

Rupert: Again, the apologist for crooks how hire illegal aliens. Didn't we go over this a few days ago. Hogwash to your belly-aching that employers don't have the tools to check.

There are tools in place that work well, including the new gov't program called ****. It's been in place quite a while now.

Even before that, it is easy as hell to make sure a SS is legit. Give me a phone and 15 minutes and I'll tell you how.

If my method is to hard for you, do what my current employer does. Hire a Private Eye. For $45 bucks a pop he gives us an answer in less than 48 hrs.

Try another excuse Rupert.

Moondoggie said...

how: who

Moondoggie said...

Oh, the two data-base programs provided by the government to assist employers with verifying a prospective employee's social security number are: SSNVS and Basic Pilot. I've used them both, they're very effective, but I do prefer my own method (15 minutes and a phone).

Rick Hickey said...

Any Children impacted by the Immigration raid were not made HOMELESS! America IS humane and all Children were taken care of by the Feds.

What happened to enforcing Title 8 sec. 1324, the LAW against aiding, abetting or encouraging any person here illegally to remain here? That IS a Federal Felony and Eric has committed this crime clearly!

Employment verification? Is now called E-Verify, 35 Million Employees processed in 3-5 SECONDS, 97% accuracy rate.

Del Monte Fresh IS still open, did they hire more Felonious Social Security Thieves or Americans that won't "do those jobs"?!

MOONDOGGIE said...

Thank you for verifying my point Rick Hickey! Children of illegal aliens are taken care of by the Federal Gov't so any way you slice it, we pay. Again, Stein has a point! His actions do not stand in the way of their prosecution. They are currently going thru the deportation process and I would like for you to tell me in what way Stein has impeded that.

I don't know, nor do I care, who DelMonte Fresh hired to replace the illegal aliens, as long as they're legal.

Also, I would like to see legislation that proposes that criminals who employ illegal aliens be made to foot the bill for any expenses related to their deportation: plane tickets, child care, lodging, etc., etc., etc.

So tell me, Rick Hickey, why doesn't OAF-er picket outside the Oregon businesses known to employ illegal aliens?

R Huse said...

Moondog

>There are tools in place that work well, including the new gov't program called ****. It's been in place quite a while now.

Fine, I was unaware of this program. Obviously you were a little sketchy on it too since you didn't know its name.

>Even before that, it is easy as hell to make sure a SS is legit. Give me a phone and 15 minutes and I'll tell you how.

And give me an ACLU lawyer, a false positive on that phone call and ten minutes in court and I'll sue you so hard your grandkids will be paying it off after you are gone.

>Rupert: Again, the apologist for crooks how hire illegal aliens. Didn't we go over this a few days ago. Hogwash to your belly-aching that employers don't have the tools to check.

Well, apparently they do, however I would tend to doubt very seriously that there are any protections from civil action arising from a false positive through use of these tools.

Look, in some sense I agree with you, however if you are going to hold employers liable for policing a situation, then you have to give them the same indemnification as the government. In short I would be 100% behind your idea if we all didn't know the fatal flaw behind it - the second there is a false positive ID, and an employee is wrongly terminated, your vaunted government program wont be on the hook, the employer will, for the governments mistake.

Rick Hickey says E Verify processed 35 Million employees with 97% accuracy. That means 1.05 Million were identified inaccurately. That's 1.05 million potential lawsuits. Are you and the rest of your tough guy friends willing to give blanket immunity from any civil action to employers for these mistakes by the government? If so fine, count me as on board. If not, then this is really just about bashing employers and not anything constructive.

Put up or shut up time.

R Huse said...

>So tell me, Rick Hickey, why doesn't OAF-er picket outside the Oregon businesses known to employ illegal aliens?

Probably because they don't see it as quite a big a deal as being in the country illegally in the first place. Lets face it, hiring illegals is wrong, against the law and is part of the draw to come here in the first place. However it would be illogical to assume the same ire accords to it. The business hiring the illegal does provide incentive to the illegal to break the law, but it doesn't directly cost the taxpayer anything. The illegal himself on the other hand uses government services that are a direct cost to the taxpayer. Those services, like the business are also a draw to the illegal entering this country. Its hardly surprising that more anger would accrue to the illegal rather than to the facilitators. The illegal costs the taxpayer money, the business hiring him does not.

However, since you seem to think it logical to protest the facilitators, then one wonders why you are so hung up on businesses. Why don't you think it odd that OFIR doesn't protest at schools and hospitals that provide services to illegals? They represent just as much of a draw, and are a more direct cost to taxpayers. Following your argument, much more anger should accrue to them since they represent a direct cost to the taxpayer. Would you support protesting at hospitals and schools as much as you would businesses as the logical extension of your argument?

BIG CAPITOL LETTERS NOTE - THIS DOES NOT MEAN I SUPPORT OR AM APOLOGIZING FOR BUSINESSES THAT HIRE ILLEGALS.

Got it? Good.

MOONDOGGIE. said...

Yeah, Rupert, I had to look them up. Those pesky acronyms, I can never keep them straight. So what? And "Basic Pilot," which has been in place for a long time now, recently had a name change. Needed to look that up too, but ran out of time -- kid's bedtime and all that. Leave it to you to make something out of it.

An illegal alien is going to call attention to himself by "suing my ass?" Alrighty then. Been using my method for twenty years. No suits yet. It's all in the delivery. The person I talk with doesn't have to give me any information outright. They just say "yes" or "no" after I recite their social security number and address history. I've never been sued for running a credit check, because I get written permission first. Then of course, there's always a Private Eye. $45 bucks a pop isn't that much.

Your post is really rich, Rupert.
It couldn't be more apologetic to the employer. I especially like this part:

The business hiring the illegal does provide incentive to the illegal to break the law, but it doesn't directly cost the taxpayer anything. The illegal himself on the other hand uses government services that are a direct cost to the taxpayer. Those services, like the business are also a draw to the illegal entering this country. Its hardly surprising that more anger would accrue to the illegal rather than to the facilitators. The illegal costs the taxpayer money, the business hiring him does not.

WHAT? I guess this is a chicken and egg question. The illegals come here for JOBS and PAYCHECKS. You can't use food stamps to buy a truck, and you can't send them home to your wife and kids back in Mexico! What a crock. You can't cash in the value of your anchor baby's medicade or WIC money and spend it on CDs and DVDs and cowboy boots and rent. Nice try.

The employer does cost us money. It's his job that lures them here. They WOULDNT BE HERE if it werent for the crooks that hire them. Good God Rupert, this is pretty damn lame. I'm almost embarrassed fro you that you would try and make this stick to the wall.

THE EMPLOYER IS THE ROOT PROBLEM AND NOTHING YOU SAY CAN MAKE THAT "NOT TRUE."

Why focus on the employers only, instead of including services? Because it's the place that will produce the biggest impact. Why picket everyone when just picketing this one group would be so effective. Concentrated effort at the root is how you kill a weed and the root is the criminals who hire the illegals in the first place. The criminals who place
"Help Wanted" ads in Mexican newspapers. Next time your there, crack open a newspaper. There's tons of "Help Wanted" ads.

If they weren't here WORKING they wouldn't be here to use services. DUH. DOUBLE DUH. (as my children would say) In fact, even my kids are smart enough to figure this one out.

For someone who so ADAMANTLY wants us to know that he does "NOT
SUPPORT OR APOLOGIZE FOR BUSINESSES THAT HIRE ILLEGALS"
you sure defend them here on a pretty consistent basis -- with the same old, tired EXCUSES. Even your grand Pooh-bah, Rick Hickey, doesn't buy it.

I think my theory is spot-on. OAF-ir doesn't picket businesses because they know damn well they will find themselves face to face with their neighbors, friends, family members and associates. Just like I said: they'll probably stick with bashing Mexicans.

How's it workin' for ya? Four years and counting. 20 million and growing. By all estimations it's going to be 2009 before any further progress from the Feds.

Progress? Yeah, a little. But nothing meaningful, nothing major.

Dry up the jobs and they go home all by themselves. Got it? Good.

Anonymous said...

I suppose the bartender serving the slobering drunk drink after drink bears no outright responsibility.

And the meth dealer selling the meth to tweaked out skeletors bears no outright responsibility.

And the shady gun dealer selling guns to gang bangers without proper paperwork bears no responsibility.

Huse, we could follow your bullshit trail all day long. Probably oughta pack a lunch.

Stevie said...

Rhuse, your 6:42 argument is a classic supply/demand fallacy. Let me first use analogy to explain.

The United States’ drug war has been going on for 40 years, and it has largely been fought from the supply side. That is to say, the U.S. government has placed the vast majority of its drug-fighting resources towards reducing supply, as opposed to reducing demand. But that is backwards, because the laws of economics tell us that as long as there is demand, there WILL be supply (the only variable that moves is price). Thus, the majority of resources should be spent reducing demand. Supply reduction will then naturally follow.

The same is true with illegal immigration. When you and others place the majority of fault on the illegal alien him or herself, you are engaging in the same supply-side fallacy that has created an expensive drug war that, ironically, has given us a plentiful and cheap supply of drugs.

Just like you have to first stop demand for illegal drugs to stop supply, you have to first stop demand for illegal labor to stop the supply of it. And who is creating this demand? Business. So, if emphasis was placed on business – either through penalty of law or some other punitive means – to reduce their use of illegal labor, that labor would go away. And until that happens, illegal aliens will simply keep acting like rational economic actors, and will go where the work is.

Groups like Oregonians for Immigration Reform don’t seem to understand this. They focus their attention primarily on illegal immigrants themselves, probably because those illegals are an easy and convenient target. But until OIR and others like you start to understand that demand creates supply, rather than the other way around, anti-immigration forces will just be spitting in the wind, and the number of illegal immigrants will keep increasing.

Oh, and this is also why charges of racism are often thrown at anti-immigration groups. If anti-immigration groups were REALLY serious about getting rid of illegals, they’d go after the economic force (business) that causes those illegals to come here in the first place. Because these anti-immigration forces spend the bulk of their time demonizing immigrants instead of the economics that underly and cause their presence in America, that leaves only two scenarios: Either these groups are indeed ignorant of economics, or there’s a tinge of racism coloring the entire issue.

Which is it? (Allowing, of course, the possibility that it could be a little of both.)

MOONDOGGIE said...

WOW, what a day. Today, I spent a few hours getting caught up with Mecha. I read their manifesto several times, had a phone interview with a top tier Mecha leader, read an interview with the author of Mecha's manifesto, and then went back to the national website to check it out even further. First and foremost: Mecha is a student advocacy organization and it always has been. What makes them a racist organization if OAF-er isn't? They're both organizations working towards political and social change. They both rant incessantly about the "protection of culture," and both have a tendency towards dramatic overstatement. Hmmmmm, the similarities are interesting, to say the least. You guys should get together for a potluck or something.

Their manifesto is a rhetorical, romantical, over-the-top chunk of tripe. However, it is hardly a call for Hispanic college students to attempt a bloody and violent racial Armageddon in the streets of America.

I would discuss Mecha's 40 year old, frightening, alarming, epic, treacherous, world-changing, and apocalyptic manifesto with you Anon (you know who you are), but first you would have to display a working knowledge of rhetorical terms used to analyze literature. If you can tell me what the following terms mean: hyperbole, metaphor, soliloquy, allegory, and figurative language, I will be glad to discuss their manifesto with you. You'll need to know these terms in order to understand what the authors are communicating to Mecha members. It also helps to have a little knowledge and understanding about classic Hispanic literature and lore, some of the Mecha stuff just doesn't translate well without it. But we can try.

Sorry Anon, I know you've got a Cialis-fueled hard-on to "take it to the streets" with your 'Nam friends, but let's look at something that really just sums it all up, okay? Go to the official Mecha website. Their on-line forum is amazing. A clearinghouse for radical militancy. A hotbed of passionate calls to action. I mean, these guys are at an all-time boiling point. It's volcanic almost. I fear things may just blow at any moment - we're talking hot, molten Latino lava. Yeah.... if that's what you call two hits since November. ROTFLMAO.

Rick Hickey said...

We do not picket businesses because we not have proof that they have Illegal Aliens working there.
Just because a company has a lot of Hispanics working there does NOT equal Illegal Alien.
Sen. Gordon Smith has many Hispanics working for his factory, but he has told Lars that they check immigration status (and I am sure his opponents have called I.C.E.).

Yes the main draw is Jobs.
Arizona & Oklahoma have already had thousands of Illegals leave in anticipation of their new Employer verification laws(ACLU challenge recently tossed out by the Courts by the way).

OFIR co-wrote an Employer verification law(hb2715) for this last Legislative session and a public hearing was set.
U.S. Sen. candidate Jeff Merkley cancelled the hearing the day before.

We protest Day Labor sites because of two University studies that reported that most Day Labor site persons are Illegal Aliens.
Also the guys at the site in Cornelius admitted it to us. In fact we got one guy picking them up to ask them for a Green Card, only One had it and the rest got out of his truck.
AND the previous Mayor there told us that they get calls daily of complaints of drunk, urinating in the streets, people of 30 at a time surrounding every car that dares to slow down there.
And any Legal immigrant can get a job at an Employment center and doesn't need to stand on a street corner, hoping to make some money.

PORTLAND GUN SHOW FRI. 14TH - SUN. 16TH @ EXPO CENTER

COME SIGN INITIATIVE #112; RESPECT FOR LAW ACT = NO LICENSES, VOTING OR SANCTUARY FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS

SIGN IT, COLLECT SIGNATURES, DONATE FOR YOUR TAX CREDIT,
TELL YOUR FRINEDS.

I would say for the 1st time in history the U.S. Senate phone system crashing from so many calls against Amnesty, the 2nd attempt this year at Amnesty AND no go on the DREAM Act Amnesty AND no go on the AG Jobs Amnesty, all this year is progress.
Also 46 states passing or considering over 1,500 New Laws on Illegal Immigration is progress.

U.S. Congress? look at their dismal approval numbers, Illegal immigration is a big part why.
They are sell outs to special interest ethno-centric open border groups AND they are COWARDS.

Even the far left N.Y. Times finally admitted yesterday that Illegal Immigration is going to be THE issue in this Predential Election and they didn't imply that Amnesty was a winner.

Anonymous said...

For your Yuletide diversion, may I present....

THE TWELVE S & M DAYS OF XXX-MAS, brought to you by "Eli and the Anons"

On the first day of Christmas,
R Huse gave to me
a stainless steel ass speculum.

On the second day of Christmas,
RHuse gave to me
two furry gerbils,
and a stainless steel ass speculum.

Tune in tomorrow for the third istallment of....

THE TWELVE S & M DAYS OF XXX-MAS

Anonymous Heironymous

Anonymous said...

Rick Hickey:

LOL...Then carry signs that say "We THINK this business hires illegal aliens" or don't accuse the business of anything at all. Just carry signs that say "Only Crooks Hire Illegals." You're not calling any business out by name with that.

Maliengus said...

IMHO, progress means:

a substantial reduction in the
number of illegal aliens who are living and working in America. You show me those numbers and I'll say "progress."

Moondoggie. said...

Another tidbit I learned today:

Overwhelmingly, Mecha members are US citizens.

R Huse said...

Moondog

You know, maybe if you had an actual argument you wouldn't have to result to insults first. Ok - I have tried to be polite, with none in return from you so maybe if I answer you in kind it will get through.

>An illegal alien is going to call attention to himself by "suing my ass?"

No nitwit. What part of false positive didn't you understand? How stupid do you have to be to take that to mean an illegal would sue?

Ill spell it out in real simple terms. I am your employee. You run a check on me as required by whatever inane "lets blame all the employers law" you get passed requires. It comes back that I am illegal. You fire me. My ACLU lawyer and I haul your ass into court along with my birth certificate and childhood photos showing me growing up in New York City. Guess what smart guy? I now own your business. Go call your private eye and cry to him about it. I think you will find your little $45 insurance policy isn't worth crap.

>You can't use food stamps to buy a truck, and you can't send them home to your wife and kids back in Mexico! What a crock. You can't cash in the value of your anchor baby's medicade or WIC money and spend it on CDs and DVDs and cowboy boots and rent. Nice try.

Obviously you do not have much experience in economics. If you think WIC money, unpaid hospitals bills and schools don't cost the taxpayer money, you sir are an idiot. If you don't think illegals come here, in part for those services, you sir are an idiot.

>you sure defend them here on a pretty consistent basis -- with the same old, tired EXCUSES.

Sure would be nice if you would point out where I defend them. Oh wait, sorry, I forgot, you aren't interested in anything constructive, just in insulting people.

I said I would be perfectly willing to support any law you care to pass, so long as it completely indemnifies the employer from lawsuits arising from false positives. How this is making excuses for employers is beyond me. You simply are another ass who has nothing constructive to say and wont put their money where their mouth is. You just want to bash employers.

>Dry up the jobs and they go home all by themselves. Got it? Good.

Brilliant, you have lurched into the obvious. Talk about the same old tired rhetoric. You obviously are not much of a thinking person. Want to dry up the jobs? Get a check program that places fines on employers for hiring illegals if they don't use it. Indemnify them if they do use it and the system screws up.

You know maybe if nitwits like you actually were employers you would be a little more knowledgeable on the issue, instead of simply answering every argument with insult.

Got it? I sure as hell doubt it because if nothing else, you have proven you cant read worth a damn.

THE REST OF YOU:

You know, it would be nice if one of you who takes me to task would point out where I said employers had no hand in this?

I said I would gladly support whatever law you care to pass

Have it fine employer

Have it jail employers

Have it completely disallow deductibility of any wages paid to illegals

There is just one proviso - If the system you put in place provides a false positive, that is identifies a US citizen as illegal, and the employer terminates them, that employer cant be held liable for civil action from the wrongfully terminated employee.

Now - Explain to me what in there is a defense of, or supports the continuing hiring of illegals. What in there is making excuses for employers?

Talk about a buillshit trail - you guys are full of it. Im amazed at how you really are just about bashing employers since obviously holding them open to civil suits for a government screw up is what you want if you object to what Im saying.

Anonymous said...

R-Fuse:

Please cite some of these civil suits. There must be thousands of them, hundreds even, okay, a few?

Also, please show me where I "insulted" you so terribly.

Moondoggie said...

Anon 555: Moondoggie

R Huse said...

>WOW, what a day. Today, I spent a few hours getting caught up with Mecha.

Glad to see you are finally looking into this group.

>First and foremost: Mecha is a student advocacy organization and it always has been.

Great - Aryan Nations is a white advocacy organization. Hmm, things get real simple when you can excuse anything I guess.

>What makes them a racist organization if OAF-er isn't?

Maybe their constant use of the term "Raza" or "La Raza"? (clue, buy a Spanish -English dictionary). Oh wait, I guess that's hyperbole, their use of the word Race, in this context isn't racist because, uh......well......... excusing it as hyperbole fits the excuse anything by minorities agenda.

Or possibly their slogan

"Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada."

(clue - get a Spanish English Dictionary )

(which I notice they have started to remove from some sites in the last few years, I also note that the national MEChA site has removed the link to their constitution, good move on their part as it was about as racist a document as one could find)

>However, it is hardly a call for Hispanic college students to attempt a bloody and violent racial Armageddon in the streets of America.

If you had actually read and understood what MEChA was about you would understand that they have nothing to do with "Hispanic" anything. As a matter of fact they completely reject the term and its implications. Rightly so I might add as anyone who has traveled in South America would know. In addition you seem to have completely missed the part where they insist Aztlan belongs to the indigenous people, which somehow they count as themselves.

>If you can tell me what the following terms mean: hyperbole, metaphor, soliloquy, allegory, and figurative language, I will be glad to discuss their manifesto with you. You'll need to know these terms in order to understand what the authors are communicating to Mecha members.

Wow - looks like you went to high school. However from your listing of the words, I am not sure you understand them yourself. Better double check on soliloquy there big guy, doesn't work to well with the written word as pertaining to a manifesto. A manifesto that you put on a web page can hardly be taken as a soliloquy. Oh well, the other words are real neat, and work in this context.

Anyway, for a guy who sure seems to have a short fuse on the "making excuses" angle you sure make a lot of excuses for this loathsome group.

I guess the modern Klan is just all kind hyperbole - "nah, nah, we don't mean anything bad by that whole nigger thing, that's just a metaphor, you know, kinda hyperbole for black guys we don't like".

>It also helps to have a little knowledge and understanding about classic Hispanic literature and lore, some of the Mecha stuff just doesn't translate well without it.

Ok, now that's funny. I would suggest talking to someone from the region before lumping it all together as "Hispanic literature". Hoooo boy you would be in for a tussle. "You got a lotta splainin to do Lucy!" Better yet, read the MEChA philosophy on their website - it will line you out a little bit on the whole "Hispanic" thing. Probably the only part of the entire thing I agree with.

Hispanic literature - talk about trying to sound literate and flubbing it big time. How anyone can spend such a large part of their day getting up to speed on one of our nations foremost racial organizations and completely miss some of the key elements of their philosophy, as you clearly have, is just stunning.

R Huse said...

Oh, and by the way, in case you cant tell, I am through with any politeness towards you Moondoggie, I tried, and frankly was getting tired of getting none of the same consideration.

Anonymous said...

R. Huse:

Why would you fire anyone without being 100% certain first. If you have a "false positive" and the employee lets you know there is an error, then wouldnt you get to the bottom of that error before firing them?

Just asking!

Moondoggie said...

Rupert:

"Finally looking in to it?" LOL, I have experience with Mecha that goes WAY back. As I clearly stated, I used my time getting "caught up" with Mecha. Guess you missed that part.

Thanks, but I don't need a Spanish dictionary as I have complete command of the language.

There are lots of "terms" floating out there for people whose ancestral origins come from "south of the border." I prefer Hispanic. I don't care what any organization thinks about my choice of words. I am capable
of thinking my own thoughts and making my own choices. I will use the words I like and therefore, will continue to use the term Hispanic. Most literature professors also use the term "Hispanic Literature" as it covers every South and Central American country as well as Mexico.

I am not making excuses for Mecha. I disagree with pretty much all of their viewpoints. I turned down an invitation to join them way back in the day. In fact, after taking a fresh look today, I was not very kind in my assessment of their manifesto. Guess you missed that part, too. However, I defend their right to exist, just as other groups like them are allowed to exist, including OAF-er. Does OAF-er have campus groups? This is a freedom guaranteed to them by our Constitution. They most certainly are NOT the only "radical" group with a presence on our college campuses. Not by a long shot.

Mecha is not working on a "sinister plan to rule the world" as the Anon I was responding too has been asserting.

The Anon that I was addressing my post to refers to the Nation of Aztlan as a real goal of Mecha members. He is certain they mean to establish a real and physical nation. Mecha's use of the term "Nation of Aztlan" does not mean mean "nation" in the literal sense. In order to understand that, the Anon I was addressing would have to understand certain rhetorical terms. Aztlan is the Mexican equivalent of Shangri-La, Valhalla, etc...

And, again, I refer to the astronomical total number of chat forum hits on the official Mecha chat forum to illustrate just how ridiculous it is to attach such alarmist phobia to Mecha's existence -- a whopping 2. Two. Two since November. Show me one incident of Aryan-style compounds, bombings, kidnappings, killings, or other criminal mayhem typically attached to radical racial groups. Wouldn't you say a little perspective is in order?

And finally, dear Rupert, puh-leeze with the "politeness" shit. You've always got your ass in a sling (no pun intended) and you've never really been amiable towards anyone who doesn't fall into line with your way of thinking. Please. I think you would be hard pressed to find many contrarians who visit this blog who would characterize you as polite. And to attempt to portray yourself as someone who doesn't insult others is mind blowing, particularly when it's literally archived for all to see. You type my tag incorrectly on purpose, that's just for your lead in, from there it's condescending bloviating at its most excruciating.

Rupert -- you don't have to be polite to me. Your ego may think otherwise, but believe me, whether or not you are going to be polite to me has ZERO impact on me, and you can take that LITERALLY.

Got it? Good.

Cecelia said...

As a HR professional who uses E-Verify daily, I would like to remind employers that just the simple act of using the E-Verify system establishes a paper trail and an electronic trail that serves as evidence for a rebuttable presumption that an employer has not
"knowingly" hired an illegal alien.

As for getting sued for a "false-positive", like "Anon 6:22pm" said, why would anyone fire an employee who says that a "false positive" has occurred and who then able to prove it?

Thanks, Cecelia

Moondoggie. said...

PS: I owned a ranch and a river rafting/outdoor adventure/hunting guide operation for twenty years in Riggins, Idaho. I had an average 40 employees at any given time, so I have been an employer.

You sure do assume a lot, don't you Huse?

MOONDOGGIE said...

Forgot to mention your other "assumption" (there's just so many of them)....

You said: Ok, now that's funny. I would suggest talking to someone from the region before lumping it all together as "Hispanic literature". Hoooo boy you would be in for a tussle.

and: Got it? I sure as hell doubt it because if nothing else, you have proven you cant read worth a damn.

This one really was funny. You've certainly called your reading retention into question Rupert. Seems you've read ALL my posts, but the part about my Hispanic roots and extensive travels throughout Mexico, Central and South America (thanks to family outposts scattered throughout these countries) and the vacation and future retirement properties I own in Mexico and Peru seem to have slipped your mind. No matter, but at least now you can rest assured that I do draw from a pretty well-rounded and rich life experience that includes an ethnic background, higher education, business ownership and world travel, for which I am immensely grateful.

Of course, many of us already know that you think we're all just "jealous of you," you've said as much on a number of occasions,(no doubt just being polite and all) but you must know, Rupert, that YOU are not the only one who has had a rich and worthwhile life with many experiences to draw from. Surely, you do know that.

Anonymous said...

you all need to get over yourselves. Jeez!

R Huse said...

Moondoggie;

>"Finally looking in to it?" LOL, I have experience with Mecha that goes WAY back........... Guess you missed that part.

No, I saw it, just clearly you were so out of touch with the organization you didn't realize how racist they are now. That's all I was saying. If you had been more aware of them in recent years you would have seen their banners at the protest a few years ago, clearly racist, patently offensive. You would also have been aware of their slogan, again a patently racist one. Glad you are up to speed now. Congratulations. What do you want, a medal?

>Thanks, but I don't need a Spanish dictionary as I have complete command of the language.

Good, then read their slogan and get back to me on exactly how it is any different from the Klan.

You seem to have a hair trigger on anyone raising a concern over employer liability as making excuses for employers. Yet somehow you apparently are entirely able to gloss over some of the extremely racist rhetoric in MEChA's official "literature"

>I am not making excuses for Mecha. I disagree with pretty much all of their viewpoints. I turned down an invitation to join them way back in the day. In fact, after taking a fresh look today, I was not very kind in my assessment of their manifesto. Guess you missed that part, too.

Got that right, I didn't see nearly the kind of criticism you claim. Most of what I saw from you was equivocation and condescension to anyone who wasn't willing to discuss it with qualifiers like hyperbole, or metaphor. The only thing interesting that would come of such a discussion would be to see the use of the word soliloquy as applied to a manifesto posted on a website. Now that would have been a real feat. If nothing else I would have liked to have seen that. Oh well.

>In order to understand that, the Anon I was addressing would have to understand certain rhetorical terms. Aztlan is the Mexican equivalent of Shangri-La, Valhalla, etc...

Oh, ok, I get it, when MEChA says they wish to reclaim "their lands" and establish a land called Aztlan on a race based system, that's a rhetorical device. Ho hum, sure sounds like convenient excuse making to me.

>And finally, dear Rupert, puh-leeze with the "politeness" shit.

Oh well, I tried. There simply is not point with you. I am almost always initially polite to anyone I respond to here, contrarian or otherwise. If they are polite back, fine, I respond in kind. If they are not, fine to. You might be able to find some posts where this is not true but in the vast majority of instances, I do not respond with rudeness first, as you clearly seem to do. One would think if you are as literate as you claim, you would have the ability respond in that fashion as well, clearly you don't.

>You type my tag incorrectly on purpose, that's just for your lead in

Actually the first time I did that it was a mistake. I know about three moondogs on various email lists so frankly, it being a common nick, I misread. I caught it after that and thought about changing it, but since you purposefully screw up the acronym of any group you don't agree with, I didn't feel you deserved a courtesy you don't afford others.

At any rate, you do seem to fancy yourself a literate person, use of "Hispanic" not withstanding. You'd go a lot further in that endevour if you could make an argument without being the first to lurch into insult as you have done with me on virtually every occasion.

As for your assertion that their is some record of me insulting someone first, good luck with that one. If you go through the logs, you will see the occasional instance, but in general I am not the first to start with the insults, especially in any kind of protracted dialog. If you want to come across as the literate person you seem to aspire to be, I would suggest the same. Somehow I doubt very highly that you will take that advice.

At any rate the one thing that is clear is that endless excuse making and equivocation is fine for you when it suits you, but not for others. Screwing up organizations names is ok when you do it, but not when someone screws up your nick. Interesting philosophy, but not one of an individual who should be taken very seriously.

We are done here.

R Huse said...

Moondoggie;

>Seems you've read ALL my posts, but the part about my Hispanic roots and extensive travels throughout Mexico, Central and South America

Nope - wrong assumption on your part. I never claimed to have read all your posts or followed your life and its various vacation properties. What are you on about here, how did this pop into your head?

Fine, you have traveled in the area, obviously my assumption was wrong. I stand corrected and let me say here, unequivocally - it apparently is possible to travel extensively in South America and not pick up on the fact that many regard lumping all cultures in the area together as "Hispanic" is offensive, especially to indigenous people who often don't speak a word of Spanish.

Congratulations on your properties, retirement plans and whatever other pat on the back you were looking for, I am very proud of you.

R Huse said...

Cecila:

>As for getting sued for a "false-positive", like "Anon 6:22pm" said, why would anyone fire an employee who says that a "false positive" has occurred and who then able to prove it?

Good question, and obviously I am not being clear in my position. Ill try to restate it so maybe its a little clearer.

Everyone, myself included wants to hold employers accountable for hiring illegals.

Fine - Lets assume a law is passed that does so, I don't care how, fine them for hiring illegals, jail them, don't allow deduction of payroll paid to illegals, whatever.

That law needs three things:

One - An instant check system like is available for handgun purchases. Apparently there are a few systems like this already in place. Great. Lets standardize it, into one simple system and simply require employers to make a phone call and check just like a handgun purchase.

Two - Once the employer has made the call, that's it. If there is a discrepancy it should be up to the employee to square this with the government, not the employer. This needs to be a clear simple process. The employer should not be given the option, or put in the position of assessing additional documentation. Once you do that, you are now allowing ways for people to get around the system. If you go to buy a handgun, and the instant check comes back bad, you square it with the police, not the gun store. It should be the same here.

Three - If the system identifies a long term employee ( there will be people who are currently employed, who would have to be screened when the system/law was put in place ), or maybe even a prospective new hire as illegal, the employer should be required to fire them immediately. The employer should also be completely indemnified against lawsuits if this turns out to be an error with the governments system. If I go to the gun store and try and buy a handgun, and there is a false positive, that's the police who made the mistake, not the gun store. I do not have recourse against the gun store, just as the employee should not have recourse against the employer.

In short that's the downside of any law like this. Im not saying that means we shouldn't have such a law. I am saying that there will be people who are wrongly terminated, and I just want to make sure that an employer, following all procedures that are required, is not suddenly open to a mountain of lawsuits for simply following the law.

R Huse said...

Anon 6.22

>Why would you fire anyone without being 100% certain first. If you have a "false positive" and the employee lets you know there is an error, then wouldn't you get to the bottom of that error before firing them?

Good question. The reason is simple. Suppose we do pass a law, with heavy penalties for hiring illegals.? That law would be absurd without some sort of system to check wouldn't it? Ok, apparently there is a system to check ( E-Verify ).

My point is the requirements of the law need to be concise, and reasonably easy to comply with. The most concise form would be the employer has to follow E-verify 100%, no discretion allowed. This would be similar to handgun purchases now.

Once you open up the possibility of discretion to employers, you open up possible avenues of abuse.

"Um, yeah, we know E-Verify said this guy was illegal but he came back with a birth certificate, how the hell are we supposed to know that birth certificates from Maine weren't actually printed on cocktail napkins?"

"Yes, E- Verify said she was an illegal, but when she showed us photos of her growing up in New York, playing in Central Park, we figured it was wrong........what?.....your kidding me?....... Photoshop? .... no, never heard of it"

You see where I am going with this here. Once you allow discretion, you are putting the employer in the position of being a document analyst and opening them up to all sorts of lawsuits. If this system ever came into place, I would want zero discretion. It really just seems the most simple and least litigious way to go about this.

Moondoggie said...

I do know that the term "Hispanic" is not liked by SOME groups in Mexico, Central, and South America. Key word: SOME. Even THIER universities use the term.

I'm looking for a pat on the back from you! Now that's funny, Rupert!
Just offering you a general overview in case you get the itch to do another sweeping assumption fly-by.

Anonymous said...

It's been my experience with E-verify that once I raise even an eyebrow, much less a question, with a potential employee, they don't even put up a fight. The pretty much just slither away and we don't see them again.

I have to agree with the other poster who asked to see the thousands or at least hundreds or maybe a couple ? of suits that are supposedly happening. I haven't heard of even one.

Basic Pilot and it's new replacement E-Verify have been around for years. The are very effective. And, as another writer said, the simple act of using them establishes a paper trail and an electronic record that backs up the employer should one of these mythical suits come to pass.

How do you screen your employees, Mr. Huse?

Anonymous said...

Huse:
Innocent bystander here...

For someone who doesn't read ALL of Moondoggie's comments you do respond to pretty much ALL of them.

I like what he/she said about "You're all just jealous of me." You deserved that one Huse, because you have said that and you do come across as very pompous and condecending and a show-off. He nailed you on several counts. Obviously you didnt like it too much but that doesnt mean its not true.
Mecha needs to change their manifesto, because it does not accurately reflect the real work they do on college campuses across the nation. Their real work is mentoring and incubating Hispanic students to be successful in college and complete their degree. To this end, they are very effective. Even now, with all the controversy, the do not seem to be very interested in the immigration issue. They mostly just stick to helping each student member stay in school and keep working towards their goal of getting a degree. Moondoggie said he/she turned down an offer to join them so I think that pretty much illustrates how he personally feels about them. I don't think Moondoggie necessarily agrees with them and his posts are mostly saying that it's ridiculous to get all bent out of shape about them when they really pose no threat and other organizations like them are allowed to exist and have campus groups.
I was an exchange student in Mexico and also in Chile. They do use the term Hispanic in their universities and also my alma mater.

HaVE a nice day.

Anonymous said...

You seem to have a hair trigger on anyone raising a concern over employer liability as making excuses for employers. Yet somehow you apparently are entirely able to gloss over some of the extremely racist rhetoric in MEChA's official "literature"
;

Hey MOONBITCH: I stopped being nice the first post:

You seem to indicate..ummmm, Maybe you might be doing ok, you as most libs don't give a sh-- for anyone but yourself.

HUSE has you by the throat with:
Yet somehow you apparently are entirely able to gloss over some of the extremely racist rhetoric in MEChA's official "literature"
;
They are the KKK of the race they shil for,and dispised as much.

But nooooo, you stand against a language issue (IDIOT, THAT IS THE LEAST OF THE PROBLEMS)

Anonymous said...

Anona-moron:

Your Mama's yellin at ya. She want's you to vacumn the trailer and get her some sweet tea and a
"baloney" sandwich....

Anonymous Heironymous said...

Thank you for tuning in to the third installment of:

THE TWELVE S & M DAYS OF XXX-MAS,

brought to you by Eli and the Anons:

On the first day of Christmas,
R Huse gave to me
a stainless steel ass speculum.

On the second day of Christmas,
RHuse gave to me
two furry gerbils,
and a stainless steel ass speculum.

On the third day of Christmas,
R Huse gave to me
3 violet wands,
2 furry gerbils,
and a stainless steel ass speculum.

Anonymous said...

Hey Huse, you ever going to cite these lawsuits you keep rambling about? By your own estimation, there has been a large number of false positives. And by your alarmist rhetoric, one would expect that thousands of lawsuits would have already been filed. So where are these lawsuits?

Or are you willing to admit that these lawsuits don't exist, and that your entire lawsuit argument is nothing more than a stinky ol' red herring?