tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post8429899817145615584..comments2024-02-19T00:14:24.293-08:00Comments on Daniel's political musings: Study: liberals cause headachesDanielhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14946233454014389006noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-29318439984601880912007-11-30T21:04:00.000-08:002007-11-30T21:04:00.000-08:00You find it astonishing how ignorant right-wingers...You find it astonishing how ignorant right-wingers are? You must have just joined the game, pal. I don't find it astonishing anymore. The thrill is gone. Now, it's just annoying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-4816883501086375412007-11-30T19:15:00.000-08:002007-11-30T19:15:00.000-08:00One of the things I find astonishing is how ignora...One of the things I find astonishing is how ignorant many right-wingers are about how our economy works. <BR/><BR/>For example, R Huse was trumpeting the 0.5% increase (sorry, I made a rounding error earlier) in revenue over four years as a significant increase.<BR/><BR/>Our economy, as presently configured, is based on continual growth, and our government mirrors that--as the economy grows, government needs to grow, partly, but not exclusively, in order to facilitate and regulate the overall growth in the economy.<BR/><BR/>So when receipts grow only at 0.5% over a four year period, with much of that time at a real deficit, and when expenditures grow at over 14%, there can be real problems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-73148308881637961032007-11-30T19:10:00.000-08:002007-11-30T19:10:00.000-08:00Ferd - Gee, ya think that the decrease in revenue ...<I>Ferd - Gee, ya think that the decrease in revenue in the first two years of Reagan could be due to the fact that he came into office during the worst recession in most peoples memories i.e. the CARTER recession?</I><BR/><BR/>No, because the Carter recession was mild--only a 0.2% drop in real GDP in 1980. In 1982 we had a 1.9% drop in real GDP--that's a much worse recession, and we had 9.7% unemployment, as opposed to 7.1% in 1980.<BR/><BR/><I>That's sort of weird. Poor and middle class people don't pay much of the taxes</I><BR/><BR/>I don't have figures handy, but poor and middle class people certainly DO pay plenty in taxes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-86185393302345695362007-11-30T17:10:00.000-08:002007-11-30T17:10:00.000-08:00Ferd - Gee, ya think that the decrease in revenue ...Ferd - Gee, ya think that the decrease in revenue in the first two years of Reagan could be due to the fact that he came into office during the worst recession in most peoples memories i.e. the CARTER recession? Come on, give me a break, for the last time Tax Cuts are a lagging factor.<BR/><BR/>>perhaps it's true that some tax cuts can be a good thing--if they go mostly to poor and middle-class folks the additional spending money would likely drive the economy. <BR/><BR/>That's sort of weird. Poor and middle class people don't pay much of the taxes, why in the world would tax cuts ever mostly go to them? Why in the world would tax cuts targeted at them, and not the rich affect the economy? <BR/><BR/>>both the Reagan and Bush tax cuts saw large spending increases go along with them.<BR/><BR/>Yep, very true. Reagan at least had the excuse that the military clearly needed to be built up. Bush had no excuse. He sure spent a lot on Iraq, but that's nothing compared to what will eventually be spent on the stupid drug benefit.R Husehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05574766285435736911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-58439277988586607562007-11-30T11:16:00.000-08:002007-11-30T11:16:00.000-08:00Tax cuts are a tricky thing. A good tax cut at the...<I>Tax cuts are a tricky thing. A good tax cut at the right time is beneficial to the economy. However, a major tax cut combined with a huge increase in government spending results in the weakening of the economy (3 trillion additional debts IN 7 YEARS and the weakening of the dollar... Canada's dollar is stronger than ours).</I><BR/><BR/>Me2, perhaps it's true that some tax cuts can be a good thing--if they go mostly to poor and middle-class folks the additional spending money would likely drive the economy. <BR/><BR/>But we haven't really had any major tax cuts that weren't accompanied by large spending increases--both the Reagan and Bush tax cuts saw large spending increases go along with them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-87041113499630780482007-11-30T10:33:00.000-08:002007-11-30T10:33:00.000-08:00Tax cuts are a tricky thing. A good tax cut at the...Tax cuts are a tricky thing. A good tax cut at the right time is beneficial to the economy. However, a major tax cut combined with a huge increase in government spending results in the weakening of the economy (3 trillion additional debts IN 7 YEARS and the weakening of the dollar... Canada's dollar is stronger than ours).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-47116498142967978382007-11-30T09:01:00.000-08:002007-11-30T09:01:00.000-08:00Daniel, this is the type of rant that makes it har...Daniel, this is the type of rant that makes it hard to take people like you seriously.<BR/><BR/>For example, we can just look at your first sentence to see some brazen ridiculousness. The idea that liberals are champions of big government is an idea with which right-ringers have squeezed a lot of mileage the last few decades. The only problem? It ignores the fact that in the last 25+ years, GOP spending and government growth has made liberals blush with envy. <BR/><BR/>First, a lesson in political science for those of you who forget: There are three bodies that control the budget…The Executive Branch, The Senate, and The House of Representatives. During the majority of the Reagan years, when American’s national debt started to sky rocket, two of those three bodies were in Republican hands. And in the last seven Bush years, when the national debt increased from $5 trillion to almost $8 trillion, Republicans were firmly in control of all three bodies responsible for the budget. That’s right…it took this country over 225 years to acquire $5 trillion in debt, but it took Republicans only 6 years to tack on another $3 trillion. <BR/><BR/>And look at this link…not surprisingly, increases in the federal debt (as a percentage of GDP, which is the most honest measurement) have almost exclusively come from Republicans in the last 50 years, with Ronald Reagan and George Bush being the primary culprits: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms<BR/><BR/>And this is not even to mention that during the first six years of the Bush nightmare, America got it’s first gigantic new government entitlement program in 30 years (the prescription drug bill), and the first new huge government bureaucracy (Dept. of Homeland Security) in almost 40 years. Both brought to you by a Republican Executive Branch and Republican Congress.<BR/><BR/>Nice try right-wingers, but the ideas that the Republicans are somehow the party of fiscal responsibility and small government is what’s known as a “popular myth”. The facts show that when Republicans consolidate power, they spend at levels that would make any liberal blush. And in fairness, there are a few conservatives (real conservatives, at least) who will freely admit this. Go look over at the CATO Institute website if you want to see some of them. The rest of you who keep championing the idea that Republicans might actually engage in spending restraint are doing nothing other than drinking the Kool-aid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-70949353157087179202007-11-30T03:23:00.000-08:002007-11-30T03:23:00.000-08:00Eli BarnhardtWhere would you get the idea that I w...Eli Barnhardt<BR/><BR/>Where would you get the idea that I would not want other religions studied in school? I was trying to contrast how public/schoolyard/classroom treatment of things Christian are, in my opinion, from what I observe in the media (Portland's Festival of the Trees? Are we worshiping trees?), what I see on school billboards/newsletters, suppressed while things of non Judeo-Christian religions are, in my opinion, looked at as favorable opportunities to broaden one's mind. <BR/><BR/>Does the majority religion need to be supressed or downplayed to be able to study, learn about, give enough room for the minority religions?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-44569218748593993732007-11-29T23:11:00.000-08:002007-11-29T23:11:00.000-08:00Every number you cited shows an increase in revenu...<I>Every number you cited shows an increase in revenue after a tax cut</I><BR/><BR/>Okay, in 1981 the Federal Government took in 1.0777 trillion (in 2000 dollars). The next year, AFTER the tax cut, the Federal Government took in 1.037 trillion (again, in 2000 dollars). That's a reduction of 3.8%. The following year, the Federal Government took in 0.962 trillion, a further reduction of 7.3%. <BR/><BR/>That's a real reduction in tax revenue after a tax cut. It took another two years to get above pre-tax cut levels, and even then just barely, after five years of steady growth.<BR/><BR/>Taxes were cut and revenue dropped. In fact, from '82 to '83 there was a drop in tax revenue in current dollars, even before accounting for inflation. <BR/><BR/>Even with the boom economic growth of 1984 tax receipts were still below the level of 1981 (in real terms). Of course, we also had 7.5% unemployment. The three years after the Reagan tax cuts the unemployment rate was 9.7%, 9.6%, and 7.5%. <BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, after the Clinton tax increase, unemployment dropped from 6.9% in 1993 to 6.1% in 1994, 5.6% in 1995, and 5.4% in 1996. <BR/><BR/>It seems as though the economy isn't really hurt by tax increases.<BR/><BR/>Until you can show that the economy does better after a tax cut and does worse after a tax increase, using real data and not made up stories, there's not point in continuing this discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-60215238772900094062007-11-29T20:43:00.000-08:002007-11-29T20:43:00.000-08:00>Look, I'm not going to go on any farther with thi...>Look, I'm not going to go on any farther with this discussion--I've produced ample evidence that conservative dogma about tax cuts is rubbish.<BR/><BR/>Of course you haven't. Every number you cited shows an increase in revenue after a tax cut, not a loss of revenue as the left constantly claims. Thats my contention, I have stuck with it, and because I wont be sucked into wandering off of it you are frustrated.<BR/><BR/>You have then tried to obfuscate by citing other instances of revenue increase. That does nothing to disprove that tax cuts result in revenue increases and you know it. <BR/><BR/>It is for the best you are bowing out now Id say. I've given four examples. You cant counter them so now you are moving on to the insult phase of things.R Husehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05574766285435736911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-43876604870398586322007-11-29T19:31:00.000-08:002007-11-29T19:31:00.000-08:00I am simply arguing that tax cuts are one way to r...<I>I am simply arguing that tax cuts are one way to raise revenues. You have done nothing to disprove that, only cite other situations where revenues increased.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, but you're simply a fool.<BR/><BR/>Revenues increasing by 0.4% over a four year period, the lowest rate in real Federal Revenue increase since Nixon's first term (that is until the current Bush's first term, when Federal revenue declined in real terms.)<BR/><BR/>Saying that the tax cut caused "increased revenue" is like saying it caused the sun to come up. In general, Federal revenues have increased, as GDP has generally increased and the population has increased. <BR/><BR/>And, actually, Federal revenue <I>did</I> fall in each of the first two years after Reagan's tax cut, but they rose steadily during Clinton's administration. According to your theory the tax increase in Clinton's first year should have led to declining revenues.<BR/><BR/>It's estimated that Federal revenues won't exceed 2000 revenues until this year. If tax cuts are a revenue-producing engine, they are an extremely weak one.<BR/><BR/>Look, I'm not going to go on any farther with this discussion--I've produced ample evidence that conservative dogma about tax cuts is rubbish. You can keep your head in the sand (or wherever else that's dark that you choose to keep it), but the evidence speaks for itself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-77866619459789968122007-11-29T18:19:00.000-08:002007-11-29T18:19:00.000-08:00Ferd - I guess you are missing my contention here....Ferd - I guess you are missing my contention here. I am not arguing that revenues don't increase for a variety of reasons. I am simply arguing that tax cuts are one way to raise revenues. You have done nothing to disprove that, only cite other situations where revenues increased. <BR/><BR/>>Okay, let me tell you this again. In the first four years of Reagan's Presidency, tax receipts increased a whopping 0.4% in real terms<BR/><BR/>Yes, I still agree with you, tax cuts are a lagging indicator. I really cant put it any more simply than that. Bottom line, Reagan cut rates and revenues increased 25% in constant dollars by the end of his 2nd term. What's your point here? <BR/><BR/>>No, we weren't hit by 9/11 in George Herbert Walker Bush's one term in office, which had the paltry 1.9% growth in tax receipts.<BR/><BR/>OK - I thought you were comparing Clinton to Bush 2, My mistake. But, this does prove my point, yet again.. Bush 1 never cut taxes, I never claimed he did. What was the single biggest reason for Bush 1 losing the election? "Read my lips, no new taxes" a promise he broke, which was accompanied by the slow growth you cite. Thank you, for the additional proof of my contention.<BR/><BR/>>No getting around it if you're willing to accept make-believe as fact. Otherwise, it's hogwash, as I've amply demonstrated.<BR/><BR/>Not really, what you have demonstrated, with your own numbers I might add, is that revenues go up after a tax cut. Where you are making a mistake is in assuming that is an exclusive contention. It is not. Revenues also can go up for other reasons as well, and I am not arguing that point.<BR/><BR/>My point is simply, cutting taxes has historically raised revenues. The numbers you cite prove that, the numbers I cite prove that, so I have no idea what your point is other than that revenues also go up under other conditions as well. Big woop, I never said they didn't.<BR/><BR/>My point is to put to bed yet another left wing lie - tax cuts lead to a decrease in revenue and an increased deficit. Using your numbers or mine, this does seem to be the case <BR/><BR/>If you want to argue that point, you need to show where there were revenue falls after a substantial tax cut, that could reasonably be tied to that cut. I have cited four major examples where there were revenue increases as a result of tax cuts. Citing other examples of revenue increases, under other conditions, does nothing to disprove my point. <BR/><BR/>Good luck!R Husehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05574766285435736911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-39206982275091356632007-11-29T15:03:00.000-08:002007-11-29T15:03:00.000-08:00Well, except for the fact that even your own numbe...<I>Well, except for the fact that even your own numbers, should one accept them I assume you do, show they increase receipts. You sure aren't an accountant are you?</I><BR/><BR/>Okay, let me tell you this again. In the first four years of Reagan's Presidency, tax receipts increased a whopping 0.4% in real terms, after they had increased 19.2% in Carter's administration. When you factor in population growth, the tax receipts in Reagan's first term amount to a decrease.<BR/><BR/><I>Awww, naughty naughty. You are comparing the Bush first term, when we were hit by little old things like 9/11, and two invasions with Clintons two terms, when we had the Dot Com bubble? </I><BR/><BR/>No, we weren't hit by 9/11 in George Herbert Walker Bush's one term in office, which had the paltry 1.9% growth in tax receipts.<BR/><BR/>Actually, the rise in tax receipts was greater in Clinton's first term, <I>before</I> the dot com bubble.<BR/><BR/><I>Look, there is simply no getting around the simple fact that historically, tax cuts have resulted in increased revenue.</I><BR/><BR/>No getting around it if you're willing to accept make-believe as fact. Otherwise, it's hogwash, as I've amply demonstrated.<BR/><BR/>Let me know when you return from never-never land.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-69542052750784903142007-11-29T14:17:00.000-08:002007-11-29T14:17:00.000-08:00Ferd:>So, the right wing gospel that tax cuts incr...Ferd:<BR/><BR/>>So, the right wing gospel that tax cuts increase tax receipts is bullshit.<BR/><BR/>Well, except for the fact that even your own numbers, should one accept them I assume you do, show they increase receipts. You sure aren't an accountant are you?<BR/><BR/>But you are almost right here. Tax cuts do increase revenue, it seems like both our number agree with that. However they are of course a lagging indicator. The economy doesn't turn on a dime. Much like if a store lowers prices, and there is no increase in sales on the first day, that doesn't mean that lowering the prices has no effect.<BR/><BR/>>In G.H.W. Bush's one term tax receipts increased only 1.9%, compared to the healthy 25.5% in Clinton's first term (after a tax increase) and 17.1% in his second term.<BR/><BR/>Awww, naughty naughty. You are comparing the Bush first term, when we were hit by little old things like 9/11, and two invasions with Clintons two terms, when we had the Dot Com bubble? Frankly that Bush's tax receipts increased at all, under those conditions, is testament alone to their effectiveness. As a retailer, I can tell you, the number of calls I got when people got their rebate cheque was phenomenal. That helped us through what looked to be a very rocky road indeed.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Look, there is simply no getting around the simple fact that historically, tax cuts have resulted in increased revenue. <BR/><BR/>>Thanks. I'm frankly just sick and tired of right-wingers passing off stuff that's made up as fact. <BR/><BR/>Well, hardly right wingers doing that. And at least its better than left wingers who seem intent on passing off made up crap to demoralize our troops as much as possible from day one of a war. Sure, both sides make up crap, but the morality of some of the lefts made up stuff is a little insidious in this regard.<BR/><BR/>Phony Koran flushings, made up massacres, no one died when Clinton lied - you know the deal.R Husehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05574766285435736911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-73906961160894950802007-11-29T12:00:00.000-08:002007-11-29T12:00:00.000-08:00Ferd - Sorry, going from 599 to 991 is pretty much...<I>Ferd - Sorry, going from 599 to 991 is pretty much close enough to a doubling of revenues, at least as far as I am concerned.</I><BR/><BR/>So, you're admitting that you don't care about being accurate. Would call an increase from 10,000 to 16,500 doubling? Because that's what you're saying.<BR/><BR/>And even if you adjust for inflation, tax receipts increased more under Carter than they did under Reagan, especially in Reagan's first term.<BR/><BR/>In Carter's administration, tax receipts increased 19.2%. In Reagan's first term, tax receipts increased a paltry 0.5% (inflation-adjusted). In his second term receipts increased 20% (but that's comparing post-tax-cut to post-tax-cut, not pre-cut to post-cut).<BR/><BR/>In G.H.W. Bush's one term tax receipts increased only 1.9%, compared to the healthy 25.5% in Clinton's first term (after a tax increase) and 17.1% in his second term.<BR/><BR/>So, after the tax cuts in the first year of Reagan's first term, tax receipts increased 0.4% in real terms over the next four years, and after the tax increase in the first year of Clinton's first term tax receipts increased 25.5% in real terms over the next four years.<BR/><BR/>So, the right wing gospel that tax cuts increase tax receipts is bullshit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-44038327642877330952007-11-29T10:40:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:40:00.000-08:00Fred-Actually, it's Ferd. :-)I like your rhetoric...<I>Fred-</I><BR/><BR/>Actually, it's Ferd. :-)<BR/><BR/><I>I like your rhetoric and agree with yo 95% of the time, but I think you've been excessively militant as of late. Keep posting, but make sure posts stay rhetorically sound.</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks. I'm frankly just sick and tired of right-wingers passing off stuff that's made up as fact. They either make it up themselves or they read it somewhere else and didn't bother to check it out, even though there are flaming red flags (such as "Dress as a Muslim Day"--c'mon, how does a Muslim dress, anyhow? Some of the one's I know dress in suits and ties. Another I know dresses like your average Portlander, probably because he <I>is</I> pretty much your average Portlander.)<BR/><BR/><I>And remember, sometimes the right, even those on the far right, are correct.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not so sure about that. I will grant you that <I>conservatives</I> may be correct, but there's not much that's very conservative about the modern American right wing. They support military adventurism, they have supported the two greatest deficit spenders of my lifetime, their rhetoric is often filled with race-baiting and immigrant-bashing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-31042710098248244832007-11-29T10:31:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:31:00.000-08:00Ferd - Sorry, going from 599 to 991 is pretty much...Ferd - Sorry, going from 599 to 991 is pretty much close enough to a doubling of revenues, at least as far as I am concerned. At any rate it is certainly closer to the truth that what most of the left would have us believe, that the Reagan tax cuts lead to an increased deficit. Also, you might want to keep in mind that most of these figures you see are NOT in constant dollars. Thus Reagan's tax cuts resulted in really a 25% increase in revenues if measured in constant dollars. However, this affects Carter quite a bit more than Reagan as anyone around will remember Carters legendary fiscal expertise.<BR/><BR/>At any rate, the point is, and the point remains, when substantial tax cuts are enacted, they do lead to increased revenues. You might have your own opinion on that, but I tend to think Mssrs Kennedy ( cut top rates 91% to 70% increased revenues 62%), Reagan (cut top rates from 70% to 28% increased revenues from $500B in 1980 to $1T in 1990), Coolidge ( cut the top rate from 73% to 24%, increased revenues 61%) and Bush2 would tend to disagree. Frankly I don't exactly understand why this point would even be in contention as its pretty basic economics, the lower the price, the more buyers one will have. Since income tax revenues are really only substantially garnered from the top 10% or so of wage earners, cutting the top rates would of course have the most effect.<BR/><BR/>At any rate, you are entitled to your own opinion on the effect of tax cuts, however the history doesn't bear you out very well.R Husehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05574766285435736911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-51515936573882795282007-11-29T08:30:00.001-08:002007-11-29T08:30:00.001-08:00Fred-I like your rhetoric and agree with yo 95% of...Fred-<BR/><BR/>I like your rhetoric and agree with yo 95% of the time, but I think you've been excessively militant as of late. Keep posting, but make sure posts stay rhetorically sound. <BR/><BR/>And remember, sometimes the right, even those on the far right, are correct.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-30554407181442369942007-11-29T08:30:00.000-08:002007-11-29T08:30:00.000-08:00PS: Also, my younger kids are in public elementary...PS: Also, my younger kids are in public elementary school. Last year they both brought home handmade Christmas tree ornaments and handmade Christmas trees made from popsicle sticks. The marquee outside the school said "Merry Christmas." I snapped a photo of it and sent it in as a "Letter to the Editor" to my local paper. I have never, at any time, felt like someone was "cramping my style" with regards to celebrating Christmas. My faith is not ego-driven so I don't crave public affirmation of it. The REAL war on Christmas is not coming from our schools and other federally-funded agencies, it's coming straight from directives issued by conservative's other religion: capitalism. Shop, shop, shop, shop, shop, shop. Why don't you focus your energies on changing that? It's far more damaging to the real "reason for the season."<BR/><BR/>Eli BarnhardtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-31344133116644113572007-11-29T07:54:00.000-08:002007-11-29T07:54:00.000-08:00Study: Right-Wingers Cause Violent Retching[AP]A ...<B>Study: Right-Wingers Cause Violent Retching</B><BR/><BR/>[AP]A study of people with 50% or more of a brain has found that listening to the factless spew of right-wingers causes projectile vomiting.<BR/><BR/>From their claims of "Dress Like a Muslim Day" to their claims of an "INS/FBI Statistical Report" to their continued claims that Iraq had WMD immediately prior to the U.S. invasion, the falsehoods of people claiming to be conservative make thinking people violently ill.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, it is difficult for intelligent people to avoid these vectors, and the vectors themselves seem unaffected by the truth, though occasionally one will see the light (see Brock, David and Huffington, Arianna).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-40706304283801059252007-11-29T07:33:00.000-08:002007-11-29T07:33:00.000-08:00And I don't think you answered this: "Why is the M...<I>And I don't think you answered this: "Why is the Menorah called the Menorah instead of holiday candelabra? Why do we have public school plays, or dress like a Muslim day during Ramadan but not even a mention of Christmas allowed?"</I><BR/><BR/>The Menorah is called the Menorah because that's what Jews have decided to call it, and it's an official part of the Chanukah celebration.<BR/><BR/>But the Christmas Tree is a tradition borrowed/stolen from pagan traditions, and there are people in this country who follow those traditions.<BR/><BR/>Part of why I didn't answer your question is it doesn't seem to make sense. But since you're asking again, I'll do my best.<BR/><BR/>We have public school plays because it's educational to perform in public, and to go through the process of learning to perform a part.<BR/><BR/>The only references I could find to a "Dress like Muslim Day" (which I find offensive, actually--Muslims dress in all sorts of ways) are on right-wing blogs, which leads me to believe that it's a hoax.<BR/><BR/>I have no problem with public schools teaching about Ramadan, as it's useful for students to learn about other cultures, and Islam is still a small minority culture in this country.<BR/><BR/>And it's really just a right-wing fantasy that mentioning Christmas isn't allowed in the public sphere. It's mentioned all over the place.<BR/><BR/>I'm not a Christian, though I believe that Jesus is a great teacher and I honor those who truly follow him, and I'm not offended by mentions of Christmas. But I'm not offended by saying "Happy Holidays" either. Those who demand that <I>all</I> mentions of December holidays be of Christmas are really just Christian Supremacists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-17980119557844864082007-11-29T07:27:00.000-08:002007-11-29T07:27:00.000-08:00There is a vast difference between the scholarly s...There is a vast difference between the scholarly study of religions and religous instruction. You did say in your post "....discussion of what it means to be a Muslim." KEY word: discussion. You answered your own question with that single word. <BR/><BR/>At my university, right now, there are 3 clasess directly related to Christianity:<BR/><BR/>The Literature of the Bible<BR/><BR/>The Geography of the Bible<BR/><BR/>The History of the Bible<BR/><BR/>Classes similar to these are VERY common from university to university. My son's high school history class just wrapped up a section on "The World's Great Religions." The STUDIED Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism. This is also, NOT UNCOMMON among high schools across America. Call your local University or High School and ask them what classes they teach that STUDY religion. If you can't see the value of studying the religions of the world then thank God you aren't Defense Secretary. Don't be so ill informed.<BR/><BR/>Eli BarnhardtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-6124126488756335622007-11-29T03:14:00.000-08:002007-11-29T03:14:00.000-08:00Ferd, what about the practical ban on all things C...Ferd, what about the practical ban on all things Christmas or Christian in the public schools while discussion of what it means to be a Muslim is allowed?<BR/><BR/>And I don't think you answered this: "Why is the Menorah called the Menorah instead of holiday candelabra? Why do we have public school plays, or dress like a Muslim day during Ramadan but not even a mention of Christmas allowed?" <BR/><BR/>Didn't Jesus sort of go about preaching to folks alot? And, His diciples seemed to make quite a fuss over getting His message to everyone even when the secular and religious leaders of the day would have prefered they had kept their mouths shut. It does not seem that Jesus wanted to keep his message of salvation low key so as not to bother some certain powerful minorities of the day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-59820384751314492212007-11-28T22:23:00.000-08:002007-11-28T22:23:00.000-08:00... liberals hate Christmas.Possibly the most assi...<I> ... liberals hate Christmas.</I><BR/><BR/>Possibly the most assinine, unimaginative, unjustified and utterly ridiculous insult to be made by conservatives since the old "You must hate America" line. Needless to say, it plays well in Miglavia.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11266150.post-59922176945703398232007-11-28T22:10:00.000-08:002007-11-28T22:10:00.000-08:00Back in the 60s when they still taught American Ci...Back in the 60s when they still taught American Civics in school, I was taught how to be a well-mannered American citizen. I was taught how to properly say the pledge of allegiance, how to sing the national anthem, how to handle and display the American flag and how to conduct myself in such a manner that at all times I showed respect and appreciation for ALL those who make up our citizenry, regardless of the color of their skin or any other detail that made them differ from the "norm." I remember vividly being taught that NOT ALL people celebrate Christmas and therefore it was more polite to say "Happy Holidays." Now this was back in Wisconsin in the early 60s and a parochial school. Are you going to tell me that there was a vast Liberal conspiracy led by a pack of "America Haters" who were responsible for developing the insidious civics curriculum of the day? I continue to follow the lessons taught to me in that civics class and have to laugh at how many of those ideals are now considered "liberal" or "anti-American." In that civics class I spoke of, Daniel and his merry band are the ones who would have been questioned about their patriotism and civic behavior. Funny how things get so twisted by "some" people.<BR/><BR/>Eli BarnhardtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com